Haven Life with Yaron Ben-Zvi (CEO) | E102

Taking the pain out of term life insurance.

Summary

In this 102nd episode of Fintech Impact, Jason Pereira, award-winning financial planner, university lecturer, writer, and host welcomes Yaron Ben-Zvi, founder of Haven Life, to talk about how he ended up in the life insurance industry, the problems he found once he got there, and how Haven Life aims to fix those problems.

Episode Highlights:

00:36: – Haven Life is a service that rethinks how people purchase life insurance policies using better tech.

01:24: – Yaron started Haven Life because he was shocked at how outdated the process was when he went to purchase his first life policy after the birth of his first child.

04:25: – Every step of purchasing life insurance had tons of friction that Yaron believed could be alleviated using technology, from understanding the product to applying to underwriting and the customer decision.

05:25: – Jason notes that Yaron includes policy examples in the application process to remove the intimidation factor.

06:54: – The best insights while developing the Haven Life website came from in-person conversations with users, not A/B testing.

07:18: – People mainly wanted to see what kinds of policies other people were buying and how much they were paying.

10:20: – Haven Life is backed and wholly owned by MassMutual. Each Haven Term policy is issued by their parent company. 

11:00: – When a customer submits an application, the Haven Life software reviews application and third party data in real-time to determine eligibility immediately.

11:57: – Yaron started the company as an online, intermediary insurance broker, but quickly decided he wanted to partner with an underwriter, and that’s what led to MassMutual.

13:58: – Haven Life is built for a younger, previously unapproached customer for life insurance.

14:53: – The hardest part of underwriting is gathering medical information from doctors.

16:42: – Haven Life removes the communications barrier of the customer not knowing the status of their policy.

18:43: – Everything on Haven Life is managed online. You can access your policy information and manage it in a customer portal online.

20:27: – If Yaron could change one thing about the life insurance industry, it would be to create a better way to get products into the hands of underserved customers.

21:09: – The customers who need life insurance most are often the ones for whom it would cost the most and for whom it would be most difficult to afford.

21:50: – Yaron’s biggest challenge has been the specific complexities of the industry since he entered it as an outsider.

23:08: – What excites Yaron the most is that he truly believes he is making a difference in people’s lives and that he still has so much work to do to make the product better.

3 Key Points

Haven Life is trying to remove the traditional friction and pain points in buying a life insurance policy.

Partnering with MassMutual allowed Yaron to rethink the entire life cycle of an insurance policy to be digital from the ground up.

The life insurance industry is not set up to make the product accessible to underserved populations.

Tweetable Quotes:

“It’s a tough thing to wrap your head around. We’re talking to them about the two things we’re wired to want to talk about least—your mortality and your finances.” –Yaron Ben-Zvi

“How do we redesign the life insurance process, how do we think about the underwriting process in a way that is completely digital from the ground up? It kind of let us rethink the entire life cycle of the process in a way that you couldn’t if you were just an outside intermediary.” –Yaron Ben-Zvi

Resources Mentioned:

Facebook – Jason Pereira’s Facebook

LinkedIn – Jason Pereira’s LinkedIn

FintechImpact.co – Website for Fintech Impact

Haven Life website – www.havenlife.com

Haven Life Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/havenlifeinsurance/

Haven Life Twitter – https://twitter.com/HavenLifeInsure

Yaron Ben-Zvi’s LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/yaron-ben-zvi-16676

Yaron’s blog – https://medium.com/@yaronbz

TRANSCRIPT:

Jason Pereira: Hello, welcome to FinTech Impact. I'm your host Jason Pereira today on the show I have Yaron Ben-Zvi, CEO of Haven Life. Haven Life markets and sales Term Life Insurance online to consumers. One of the things that makes them unique is they're actually attached to mass mutual, so they had the experience of working within a traditional insurance carrier while simultaneously being a FinTech. And with that, here's my interview with Yaron. 

Yaron Ben-Zvi: Yaron. 

Jason Pereira: Hi, how are you? 

Yaron Ben-Zvi: Good. 

Jason Pereira: Thanks for taking the time today. 

Yaron Ben-Zvi: It's great to be with you. 

Jason Pereira: So Yaron Ben-Zvi of Haven Life, tell us about Haven Life. 

Yaron Ben-Zvi: Absolutely. So Haven Life is really out front in helping to rethink how people buy life insurance. We've really taken a process that traditionally takes someone four to six weeks to get a fully underwritten life insurance policy and we've reimagined it from the ground up for the next generation customer. We've thought about how technology can really make it easier for someone to buy this important financial product. 

Jason Pereira: Excellent. When you said four to six weeks, I visibly cringed being a licensed life agent, I know that that is the likely unfortunate result of any application. So we're going to dive into how you've kind of streamlined this, but before we get started, let's go through the history of the firm. What made you start this company? 

Yaron Ben-Zvi: Yeah, absolutely. So actually my background has been in startups and early-stage companies for a while and about a couple of years, well I should say seven or eight years ago after my daughter was born, I had the experience of my dad tapping me on the shoulder and say, "Hey, it's time to get some life insurance," and so I did what I always do, as someone who worked in FinTech, I went online and I figured I'd get the thing checked off my list very quickly. 

Yaron Ben-Zvi: What I found was pretty eye opening. It was kind of a complicated process. It took a long time. I couldn't really easily make heads or tails of what the products were that I was buying and I really was the kind of person who expected things, to do things myself online. I'd already been doing my banking online, my sort of investments online and was hoping that I could do the same with my life insurance. What I found was a world very different from that. So that really led me to the journey that started Haven Life. My first step was I actually got licensed as a life insurance agent, learned a lot about the business and ended up starting this company. 

Jason Pereira: So it was like looking at a horror show when you basically got licensed in it and saw just how everything works and sort of slow and methodical and terrible old school ways. 

Yaron Ben-Zvi: Yeah. [inaudible 00:02:44]. 

Jason Pereira: So yeah. 

Yaron Ben-Zvi: So okay, well [inaudible 00:02:47] opportunity, right, this was like a really hard product to sell and so there felt like there should be easier ways. 

Jason Pereira: Especially term life insurance. We're talking about literally the plain vanilla of forms of insurance. And it's a common story, a guy who knows there can be a better way and knows that these things can be built, basically goes and tries to do it himself, discovers a cluster bleep of an industry and says, "Oh yeah, there's got to be a better way. There's an opportunity here." So if not for people like you, we'd all still be in the stone age. So thank you for that. Let's talk about that journey. You get the license as an insurance agent, you discovered that everything was operating the same way it did pretty much in the 60s and what was it that you decided you needed to change and how "..." What was your approach to changing? 

Yaron Ben-Zvi: Yeah, so the first thing that we really thought about was how do we reduce friction in the process? Right? 

Jason Pereira: Mm-hmm (affirmative). 

Yaron Ben-Zvi: So a typical life insurance buyer has to first get educated about the space, right? And so they go to Google and they start thinking about what is the right type of life insurance. So that was kind of step one that we thought we could help make easy for the customer. The second part was the customer actually has to apply for life insurance and so typically that means they have to find someone to help them apply. They go through these 30 or 40-page kinds of packets or PDFs to actually go through the process. That can be a lot of back and forth with someone. Then it'll take several weeks for them to get an underwriting decision. After all of that, then they can decide do they want this policy or not? Right? 

Yaron Ben-Zvi: So each of those points involves a ton of friction and we thought we could use technology to basically make each of them easier. Right? So the first one was we could use technology to help people understand the product and how much they need very easily. The second one was that we could make the application process really easy by having a person just do it like they would expect themselves on a computer in a couple of minutes. The third was we could use technology to make the underwriting process faster and get a customer decision in a much more timely fashion. 

Jason Pereira: Okay, so let's talk about all three of those value propositions. So first off, let me commend you on your website because I am not seeing any of the typical tropes that I see used in the sale of life insurance, right? You know, you have some beautiful graphics, simple, approachable, non-intimidating technology, a text altogether, right? So essentially you made this very, very approachable for someone who may be afraid of what this entire complicated world means because maybe they hadn't experienced before and it was complicated. Right? The other thing I find very interesting, that I haven't seen anyone else do, is when you have this section for estimate your rate, which is the quotation section, you actually have been smart enough to put up on the side some typical examples like here's a 21-year-old male, $950,000 in coverage, 20 years, it's going to cost this much, right? Like you've "..." Before they even "..." When they get to this box and they got to put in this information, you've already taken away intimidation. 

Yaron Ben-Zvi: Yeah, no, it's so great that you noticed that. You know, it's one of the things that we learned early on, which is people are intimidated and that kind of really stops them from continuing in this process, which is unfortunate because it's so important. One of the things that often they have in their head that they don't realize as they completely overestimate the cost of what this product is. Right. The great thing about term life insurance is it can be really ashed friendly, I'll call it, for a younger customer, the kind of customer that we're trying to attract here at Haven Life. So giving them a sense of like, look, people are getting $500,000 million dollar policies for whatever it is, $15 $30 a month makes them all of a sudden feel like, oh that's not so intimidating. I could do that. Real people are getting that and maybe I will go ahead and take the next step in this process. 

Jason Pereira: So I'm curious, did you guys AB test this before you did it? Like would you have a state of the website where it didn't have these examples in one word did and if it did, how did that impact people actually going through the quotation phase? 

Yaron Ben-Zvi: So we didn't AB test that specific feature, but we did a lot of qualitative testing when we designed our website and our first iteration of quotes didn't have that. That's one of the things that we learned actually. It's really hard to get the qualitative insights with AB testing and oftentimes the best insights come really from when you sit down with someone. When we did that, it kind of, "..." This thing came out of like, oh, I just kind of want to see what other people are getting. Right? We saw that it really, really resonated with people. That's how we ended up putting it into our website. We've just kind of kept it there ever since. 

Jason Pereira: Well, it makes sense, right? I mean giving you some very basic use cases, you're giving the amounts they're applying for, the types they're applying, when the premiums they're applying for. You know, I find first of all a couple of stories.One is the conventional route, we'll do these needs' analysis and say okay, you need $2 million and this is someone who earns less than a hundred thousand a year and they're sitting there going, that is an enormous amount of money, right? The first thing that happens in their mind is they're questioning the validity of that number, right? Now the next step is I take them through a needs analysis, show him where the salt comes from. But you've kind of done that through kind of group proof. You created social proof and saying, "Hey, here's someone in your situation. This is how much they took, this as much as they would pay." 

Jason Pereira: The other issue with this type of product, and I've talked with many people in this space about online sales of insurance and where the quote "..." Where the death of the sale happens is right after a quotation, right? Now, don't get me wrong, there's a known problem or the number of sales that drop off by the time you hit the shopping cart is enormous. That's "..." People will browse in the look at the price and they'll step away, which is fine, that's normal. But I've often wondered how much of it is the fact that we're not conditioning them to understand what the end results are going to be. Right, and you've already taken that kind of surprise sticker shock out. 

Jason Pereira: I had to think that if people are going to be shocked by the price in the first place, basically what would happen is at this point you've conditioned them to say this is the expected range. Oh look, that person looks a lot like me. I can expect to pay somewhere around that. Let me enter this in. Right? So I think you've already EA weeded out anyone who's already got to be stick "..." Has sticker shock, but also conditioned in the more likely say, "You know what? I think I can do that." So smart move. 

Yaron Ben-Zvi: It's such a great point that you're raising, right? I think what we have to do really as an industry and what we're trying to do with Haven is that people come into this process and it's a tough thing to wrap your head around, right? We're talking to them about the two things that we're kind of wired, want to talk about least, right? Which are your mortality and your finances. I call it sort of [inaudible 00:09:26] plenty of topics. So this is kind of what's swimming around in people's minds when they're starting to think about this product and then you enter into a process that can feel overwhelming and opaque, right? That's a lot of friction to try to get over. So we have to try as we do with the website, use these small opportunities to kind of build trust and confidence along the way so that the process at the end isn't surprising to people. Or that we don't surprise them even somewhere in the middle of the process in such a way that then says, that this was a waste of time or it's not worth the effort. 

Jason Pereira: Yeah. I mean countless people have, I've spoken to are like I don't even want to look at that because I know it's going to be terrible. It's like, well I don't know where you get that idea. Well, it is what it is and we can prove that it might not be terrible in your mind. So that's the marketing and front end side. Talk to me about the underwriting side. How do you progress through that? 

Yaron Ben-Zvi: Yeah, so first off I should say we are "..." Haven Life is what we call the in house startup at MassMutual. So all the policies that we saw are actually MassMutual policies and so it's a kind of MassMutual underwriting as well. But what we've done is we've worked to kind of recreate the process and make it very kind of technologically enabled. 

Yaron Ben-Zvi: So step one is the customer will, through the website, fill out the entire application online and we've actually built out the applications this way where it's really easy for a customer to understand by themselves and all of the data points that the algorithm and the underwriting algorithms need to issue decisions are very cleanly captured by that front end process. Once a customer hits submit on the application, what happens is we go out, we pull in a bunch of information from public data sources and databases and all of our algorithms look at those, all of that information, that application and in a matter of seconds decide, can we issue this policy right away without a medical exam? Can we issue what's called temporary coverage until the customer goes and gets medicals exams? Or do we need just them to go get a medical exam before we issue any type of coverage? 

Yaron Ben-Zvi: So that's how the underwriting process happens in a matter of seconds. 

Jason Pereira: Fair enough. So you have a certain threshold and certain amounts of health whereby MassMutual said issue the policy standard as is, no problem. Then you have the threshold, which of course you need to issue a temporary and go elsewhere. So let's actually go back to the Mass Mutual piece. Tell me how that came about. Did you come to them with a proposal? Did they find you early stage? Like how did that happen? 

Yaron Ben-Zvi: Yeah, so it's a great question. So if you remember, I started the company and got licensed and really initially started it as an effective online life insurance intermediary or broker. And one of the things I quickly learned was that a lot of the pain points or a lot of the friction in the process really had to do with all the things that lived with the carriers, right? The underwriting and the application taking and the things you couldn't really have control over as an agent. 

Yaron Ben-Zvi: So I decided I wanted to go partner with a carrier and ended up bringing the company in house to Mass Mutual about, little more than five years ago now. And effectively we became kind of the subsidiary of MassMutual, which we think of as the in-house startup within the company. That really let us, with MassMutual, work on how do we redesign the term life insurance process? How do we think about the underwriting process in a way that is completely digital from the ground up? It kind of let us rethink the entire life cycle of the process in a way that you couldn't if you were just kind of an outside intermediary. 

Jason Pereira: Interesting. Because I mean I've seen, I think you're the first one I've seen that kind of went in-house to these people and I think it's incredibly valuable because they're not technologists. They're oftentimes "..." The joke is that infrastructure is terrible and the entire industry, but in the insurance industry it's beyond ancient. So, I can "..." In a world where insurance age, insurance companies were modern, API driven, open-ended companies, you're that type of move and not be necessary but frankly, we don't live in that world. So I think, you probably chose the route that was the one that resulted in the least amount of friction both for yourselves and for the clients. So yeah, smart move. 

Jason Pereira: Which leads to a number of other questions, like when you guys started out working with these people, was there a sense of, Oh no, these guys are going to put me out, put other people out of business in this company and we're going to [inaudible 00:13:45] with the layoffs or were they willing to say, you know what, this system is old and broken and we need to modernize it. What was the kind of feedback you got internally? 

Yaron Ben-Zvi: No, I mean, look, I think first off we're trying to go after a very different customer, right? If you think about it, the way we segment this out, we really think Haven is built for that kind of young family, younger life insurance customer that really wants a self-directed process, which is completely online. So we've built this product for kind of a specific customer segment that wasn't necessarily being addressed previously. I do think a lot of the things that we've done are from a technology standpoint and an underwriting standpoint, kind of the industry now more broadly even recognizes these things are necessary for a lot of the advantages that we've done from a "..." We've sort of created from a technology standpoint in terms of speed and efficiency are also now things being applied to other parts of the business as well. So I think it's created a lot of really good kind of benefits beyond even just what we're doing. 

Jason Pereira: So you know, we have "..." If a policy can be issued standard off the bat, no problem, that is nice and smooth, if it can't be issued standard. I mean the notorious part of this industry, which still it causes more delays than even the back office is getting medical information from doctors. What have you done as you nod, what have you done there to grease the wheels and try to reduce friction in that case? 

Yaron Ben-Zvi: Yes. 

Jason Pereira: Still, the bane of your existence, just like it is mine. 

Yaron Ben-Zvi: It is still the hard part I will say. Right? So a lot of customers and you kind of have this trade-off right in the world where you want to keep prices as low as possible, right? And to do that you kind of need the most information about a persons health history as you can get. So medical exams in a fully under where they're still kind of an important part of the process. What we've done to make that easier is we've really digitized as much of the process as can happen and peak beyond even the initial application, which is again, part of the advantage that we have been kind of a subsidiary of a carrier is we've been actually able to do that. So for example, if an underwriter or someone needs more questions for you after you take the medical exam or right before because something on the application triggered an additional type of question we want to ask. All of that can be done digitally as you schedule the exam. All of this sort of notifications and things that you get around where you are in the process happen digitally nudges that you get if you haven't yet scheduled the exam all happen digitally. 

Yaron Ben-Zvi: So everything really kind of happens in this very timely, efficient digital process. Now the actual exam still happens the same way it does, which is if you schedule it, somebody comes out and sadly still has to stick you with a needle and take your blood and so forth. So, part of the process is still very in some ways traditional. When the exam results come back, they come back to us digitally, we rerun our algorithms and all of the sort of processes that happen from that point on are again, timely and efficient at that point. 

Jason Pereira: So what you've done is at least you've taken away the communication barrier of what's going on with the policy, which is an enormous service offering because quite frankly, the last thing you want is someone saying, Oh yeah, and by the way, where the heck is this insurance policy? Or where do I stand you or I forget? Or you know, inevitably that gets blamed back on the adviser for poor communication, which is merited in many ways. 

Jason Pereira: But you know, I often basically say like the end of the day I know where my pizza is when I order from Domino's, I know if it's in the oven, I know if it's being inspected, I know if it's out for delivery, right? Yet meanwhile, so many more things that are more important than my pizza getting to me in 20 minutes, I have no idea where they stand in the queue. That just to me is kind of when you really think about it, you would think something like an insurance underwriting process would be more transparency about where you are in a funnel because that's more important to my life than my pizza arriving inside of 20 minutes. So, good on you for doing the pizza tracker for insurance application. 

Yaron Ben-Zvi: Pizza tracker. 

Jason Pereira: That is "..." That was a game-changer man. Every time I don't, "..." It's funny, every time I go and I ordered from someone else's, we should be there in approximately 40 minutes. Like what is that? So nothing. Okay, excellent. 

Yaron Ben-Zvi: [inaudible 00:17:54] So life insurance is a product that you're going to buy a few times in your life, right? So I do think if you provide a kind of understanding and transparency, people will give you a measure of patience along the way and know better if they didn't have to, right? But, I think at least there's more that we can do to kind of bring them along in this process. For sure. 

Jason Pereira: You show them that "..." You're showing them that it matters to you that they get their stuff done, right? So it's valuable. So then once it's been issued, what's the actual policy issuance process look like?

Yaron Ben-Zvi: Yeah, everything is digital. So you get your final underwriting decision and basically depending on the rate you kind of click, I accept this offer button and literally the process gets delivered to you electronically, effectively, immediately and you can then log in to an online account center and look at all your policy details and your manager policy from there. There's no paperwork that happens back and forth. Everything is kind of digital and in real-time. 

Jason Pereira: Excellent. Good. Well, that cuts another pain point out of it. [crosstalk 00:19:02]. 

Yaron Ben-Zvi: It's kind of funny that you bring up that question. So you obviously know a lot more about the industry than most people who I talk to. [crosstalk 00:19:06] Right? You wouldn't expect that actually in most cases. What happens is another round of paperwork and you have to send some additional amendments and you've got to send this stuff back and forth and customers don't even know that going in. So it may not sound like much of a value proposition, but to those in the industry, we know, that's actually pretty unique. 

Jason Pereira: It is unique because I mean, contemplate the traditional market, which is essentially, okay, the agent gets the policy delivered to them, and then there's a policy receipt, there is sign off on any other than any of the things we collected from you from, I don't know, during the process, was there a change in rating and all this other stuff. Then there are also these disclosures, right? So you're talking about like possibly anywhere between one to ten signatures, depending on how complex the case was and another meeting to go through that. 

Jason Pereira: It's just like when you think of better from the standpoint of the client, it's like you said, you're going to do business with me, just give me the bloody policy. Right. Yet we have to cover our butts in so many different ways, which is fair. But there's, there's a better way to do things that, quite honestly. Yeah. So, yeah. The one thing that I "..." What can I say? You're taking the pain out of a very painful industry quite honestly. So thank you for that. So before we wrap up this three questions, I ask everybody how the first one is, if you had one wish for something you can change in your company, the industry as a whole, what would it be? 

Yaron Ben-Zvi: I think the thing that I would change for the industry as a whole is I would really focus it on creating a better way to solve how we get products in the hands of underserved customers. I think where I'm kind of going with this is one of the challenges that I think that we face is continuing to serve broader populations of customers. If you think about the product that we sell, unfortunately in this country it's a difficult one because income inequality is such that, health outcomes often correlate with income. So what you have is kind of the populations that are least healthy and need your product are also the ones that can least afford it because you have to charge the most too. I think that's kind of a dynamic that is really challenging. If I could change something about this industry it would be solving that dynamic in some way. 

Jason Pereira: Yeah, I mean, especially in certain types of insurance, I mean disability, people who work blue-collar jobs are more likely to be claimed disability so renting an expensive property becomes even more expensive, long term care insurance, the people who can "..." Need it the most of the ones that can least afford it. 

Jason Pereira: It's yeah, it's an unfortunate dynamic and yeah that's one wish I would like to see come to fruition as well. So what has been the biggest challenge in getting to where you are currently with the company? 

Yaron Ben-Zvi: I think "..." Look, I came from outside this industry, so in a lot of ways I kind of had expectations about what the process should be like, but I didn't know a lot of the details about how to get it done. I did look for- 

Jason Pereira: What do you mean you're programming in COBOL? 

Yaron Ben-Zvi: But you know, I really think this is a really particular industry in terms of complexity, right? In some ways, right term life insurance, the kind we sell is a simple product but still like the data complexity, the complexity of algorithms, the regulatory complexity, the customer behavior complexity, all of that together has made it one of the "..." Just an extremely difficult space I think to crack and do something different than "..." Because there are so many variables that you have to take into account. So I think I underestimated in some ways the challenge ahead of me when we started this and how far we could get. I still think, "..." I think we're doing a great job. I, in my view, I think we're leading the industry in terms of how good customer experience that we can help provide. But I still think that there's more work to be done. 

Jason Pereira: That there is. Replacing the backend servers is the first thing. We can get to that later. So last question for you before we wrap up. What excites you the most about what you're working on and gets you out of bed every morning and keep doing what you're doing? 

Yaron Ben-Zvi: Look at, so I think broadly, I really love the space that we're in. I never actually imagined that I would end up in life insurance, but I truly believe we're doing things that help people protect their lives in fundamental ways that are really substantive. We're doing something that makes a difference in people's life. After kind of savings and budgeting protection is kind of like number two I think in terms of what you need to think about for the sense of financial security. So when you have someone that you can, you know who files a claim and then is so thankful for the life insurance money that they received and such a big difference to their life, you just kind of reap the benefits in some ways of all the hard work and no matter how difficult that is. So I think that's what gets me up and I think the other thing, just to mention, I think we're just getting started. Again, this idea that there's so much work to do still. I think there's still more work that we can do to make the product friendlier for customers. 

Yaron Ben-Zvi: We're also now expanding into new product sets. So we just launched something called AJAP [inaudible 00:24:15], which is a first of its kind direct to consumer annuity. Help people cover longevity. So I'm really excited now to think about the technology that we've built and how we can bring it to other types of products in the life insurance space. 

Jason Pereira: Yeah. Especially in that space in the US where there's so much complexity in the annuity world and because of that, so many financial pundits saying stay the heck away from them. Even though frankly, longevity is becoming a bigger risk than life insurance is in many ways for people. Right? So it's something we cannot avoid and something that needs to be tackled equally as hard as what you're doing with the life insurance side. 

Yaron Ben-Zvi: Absolutely. 

Jason Pereira: So thank you very much for your time Yaron. It was greatly appreciated. I wish you nothing but the best of luck in continuing to take the pain out of a lot of life insurance for everybody. 

Yaron Ben-Zvi: I really enjoyed the conversation. Thanks for the time. 

Jason Pereira: So that was my interview with Yaron Ben-Zvi of Haven Life. I hope you enjoy that and I hope that many of the things that these FinTechs are working on to make life insurance less painful, end up being ported over to the advisers' channel. And what that, as always, I am Jason Pereira. If you enjoyed this podcast, please leave a review on Apple Podcast, Stitcher, Google Play, or wherever it is you get your podcasts. It really helps people find us. Until next time, take care. 

Speaker 3: This podcast was brought to you by Woodgate Financial, an award-winning  financial planning firm catering to high net worth individuals and their families. To learn more, go to woodgate.com. You can subscribe to this podcast on iTunes, Stitcher, and Google Play, or find more episodes@fintechimpact.co.