The Financial Planning Association of Canada | E125

The Financial Planning Association of Canada | E125

Elevating Financial Planning Standards: An In-Depth Look at FPAC with Julia Chung In this episode of Financial Planning for Canadian Business Owners, host Jason Pereira delves into the importance of seeking high-quality financial advice. He is joined by Julia Chung, the chairperson of the Financial Planning Association of Canada (FPAC), to discuss the goals and benefits of the organization. Julia elaborates on FPAC's commitment to advancing financial planning as a profession through education, community support, and advocacy for fiduciary standards. They explore membership requirements, the value of a psychologically safe professional community, and FPAC's role in elevating the industry. The episode concludes with guidance on seeking financial planning services and the significance of choosing a true financial planner. 00:00 Introduction to Financial Planning for Canadian Business Owners 01:05 Meet Julia Chung: Chairperson of FPAC 04:18 The Importance of Fiduciary Standards 07:12 FPAC's Vision and Membership 13:01 The Role of Financial Planners in Clients' Lives 19:56 FPAC's Community and Educational Resources 25:01 Finding the Right Financial Planner 27:12 Conclusion and Call to Action

Resources Mentioned:

Full Transcript

[00:00:00]

Jason Pereira (2): Hello, and welcome to Financial Planning for Canadian Business Owners. I'm your host, Jason Pereira. Today on the show is a different one. Specifically, I decided that ~we need to, or ~I need to, help you find better advice. ~And ~what I'm doing with that, besides just profiling good advisors doing great work, is that I have welcomed on three different organizations.

~We're Basically great advisors, great planners work, and really ~we're going to ~do is ~profile each of these three organizations, what they stand for and why you want to consider working with a member of the organization [00:01:00] or someone who holds one of those credentials and ~really hopefully ~educate you on what to look for when you're looking for a planner.

And for my first guest, I have Julia Chung, ~the, sorry, I was going to say CEO, but I forgot that's not the title, the president, I should know this, ~the president of the Financial Planning Association of Canada. ~Sorry? ~

Julia Chung: ~I'm not the president, ~I'm the chair.

Jason Pereira: The chair, sorry, we changed a bunch of titles after I stepped down.

So Julia Chung, the chairperson of the Financial Planning Association of Canada and longtime friend, Julia, thanks for coming on.

Julia Chung: Thanks for having me. ~This isn't scary at all. ~

Jason Pereira: I don't bite, even though many people think I do. ~All right. All right. ~Julia Chung with the Financial Planning Association of Canada.

Tell us about the Financial Planning Association of Canada.

Julia Chung: Wow, it's this great organization that me and my friend Jason founded a handful of years back. And I think a lot of people ~to ~ask the question, do we need yet another organization around financial advisors in Canada? And I would say yes.

~By and large the answer is no. There's too many, we're very fractionalized. ~So why would we choose to do this? And the reason why we chose to do this was because we saw that there were a lot [00:02:00] of really great financial planners. ~And of course, planners, specifically ~who want to do. A really great job serving clients very well and want to elevate what that means.

I want to. Represent financial planning as a true comprehensive profession, separate from providing investment advice, insurance advice, tax advice, legal advice, all those kinds of things, but instead actually recognizing that, the profession of bringing all of those things together. Is in and of itself an expertise and the organization works to elevate not only the professionals who do this by providing lots of great education and community and support, but also lobbying to, regulators and government organizations about what it actually means when they're putting together their policies and regulations and using the world word financial planning.

Jason Pereira: ~Excellent. Thank you. All right. ~Talk to me [00:03:00] about membership. What does it take for someone to be a member of the FPAC, we'll just start using the short acronym, and ~how does, ~what are the obligations of membership?

Julia Chung: We have a couple of different levels of membership, and our main full membership is somebody who is an active financial planner and holds the basic required designations, which would be the CFP designation.

From FP Canada. ~That's I've always said that's table stakes for being a financial planner. That's the bare minimum. ~We also have student memberships for people who are growing in the field and wanting to learn. And that is very inexpensive because we want to influence the next generation really well, we have an affiliate membership for those people who work with financial planners in supporting roles, whether that's through education, technology, Those kinds of things.

And then of course, we have a retired membership as well. People who have moved on from financial planning full time in their work, but don't want to lose their edge and still have lots to give to the community. And [00:04:00] the main requirements are of course, that, you've got the basic designations you believe, of course, in the profession of financial planning, and most importantly, you're prepared to commit to our fiduciary oath, which you can find on our website.

Jason Pereira: So let's talk about the importance of that. So fiduciary, for those unfamiliar with the term, is the single highest standard when it comes to law in terms of the obligation of one professional to the people they are serving. So you're held to account at a higher level and even to liability at a higher level.

A fiduciary violating or stealing from someone, basically is actually penalized more than just the average person stealing from someone, rightly because you're in ~a position of, let's say privilege, but ~a position of authority and guidance and an obligation to live up to it. So talk to me about What the industry is like by default when it comes to fiduciary standards and why we felt the need to basically create this pledge.

Julia Chung: ~Yeah, ~the concept of fiduciary is, can be confusing because of course there's the fiduciary and law in the United States and then there's [00:05:00] fiduciary and that gets confusing for a lot of people. But in the industry in general says that it wants. Advisors, in the financial world to look after the best interests of their clients.

And that is by and large a lower standard than a fiduciary obligation. ~And I think ~Michael Kitsies calls it the difference between an off the rack suit and one that's tailored to you. And when we're working directly with clients in the way that we do, if they're paying us for our expertise in whatever way that they do pay us.

They are ~expecting that we're giving them a tailored suit, right? They're ~expecting that the advice that they're receiving is unique and special to them and that we've thought about it and we've put the effort in and made it about them first and foremost and not about ourselves.

Jason Pereira: Yeah, I think one of the ways I've described in the past is if you went and basically pulled people in Canada off the street and said do you believe your financial advisor has an obligation act in your best interest at all times and put them, put you first, I think the answer [00:06:00] overwhelmingly would be yes, or I sure as heck hope so.

That's the reality. But unfortunately, it is not, right? Suitability is not the same thing as always putting the client's needs first. And that's an important differentiator. Now, again, a organization like a voluntary organization, like in effect, it's not a regulator, can't impose a fiduciary standard, but you can hold your members to it and basically educate them on what that actually means.

Julia Chung: And, in, in trying to elevate the profession into something that we can all be proud of and, really serve our clients really well, just committing to that oath as being part of our membership is, I think, pretty important. It says, I believe that I can go above and beyond and I'm willing to put myself on the line, liability wise.

~to ~to serve my clients well. So I'm really proud of, what our FPAC members have committed to and continue to commit to.

Jason Pereira: ~Yeah. ~I've always said about some of the things that comes down to, when it comes to the fiduciary standard, if your advisor is not willing to, if that's one of the reasons why they're not willing to join the [00:07:00] organization, you've got bigger problems.

Julia Chung: Absolutely. ~Absolutely. ~Why wouldn't you say I put all of me behind the advice that I'm giving you. You want that from your advisor.

Jason Pereira: Yeah. Now one of the things we did when we first started this process was to look at a number of other organizations around Canada, U. S., rest of the world, and look at what was working and what wasn't, right?

And one of the things that we found was a major issue was that there was a lack of unified vision about what it's meant to be a member. So oftentimes it was like, Hey, ~we're ~we ~all do X? Okay, congratulations. You ~all do X. You're a networking group. What are you trying to achieve? ~And then, oh, this regulatory issue came up.~

Let's pull everybody in there. Basically the question becomes maybe the positive thing you wanna create or the people who are passionate about this wanna create is not possible because a long tail of people don't want it to happen and now they're worried about losing members.

~Talk about how, ~talk to me ~about, or the audience. 'cause I know the answer ~about how we solve for this problem.

Julia Chung: I think at FPEC what we've done, and let me know if I'm answering your question properly, but [00:08:00] I think what we've done is provided a really clear vision. ~And as our CEO Joanna likes to say, ~this isn't ~correct.~

Just a membership organization. This is a movement and I think that's really important. There are industry organizations out there who are everybody shows up and we've got their little card and we work in the same business. Now we're going to hang out together. That's bare minimum. ~And then yeah, so ~it becomes a networking organization and maybe some sharing of resources, but we actually have a belief system of philosophy and very specific goals around professionalizing financial planning.

So if you are part of this organization, that's what you're working towards. You're not just showing up there so you can get a bunch of CE credits, though you do get those, or, so you can access all the brains of the people who are part of the organization, but you do get those, but that's not why you're there.

Why you're there is because you want to be part of the group that is changing how professional financial planning advice is provided, what it means to be served well, and [00:09:00] improving the knowledge, experience, and advice being provided by all of those people together. You know that concept of a rising tide raises all boats instead of putting a bunch of competitors in the room and saying, fight each other and made the, ~I don't know, ~last person standing when the we're not trying to create that.

We're not trying to create ~a soul winner. We're trying to create a. ~A bunch of winners because if all of our financial planners become ~and a ~great financial planners who are improving themselves every single day, then the services and advice they're providing to their clients are getting better and better every single day.

And every time that you say you're a financial planner, you can be proud of that. And I can know that you're representing me when you say that. And every time I say I'm a financial planner, you can hear that and say, yeah, I'm pretty happy to be in the club with her. That's really important. ~And I think really meaningful to our members.~

Jason Pereira: Absolutely. ~And I will I'll give you the rest of the answer I was looking for. ~One of the things we did was we created a filtering mechanism and that filtering mechanism was a unified vision. ~It was our, ~it was just [00:10:00] spelled out on our charter, a unified vision that talks about basically our objectives for creating a world of transparency and disclosure of creating a world of basic fiduciary standards, one where the professional that is basically being held ~to or is being holding ~out as a financial planner is basically seen in the same light as other professions like accountants, lawyers, doctors, whatever else it is.

And having the professional education and support in order to do that. And one that also is based on evidence, not one that's based on heuristics. Too much of this industry is based off of like rules of thumb or ~what this person, ~what this person's belief is. I don't care what your beliefs are.

~It's nice. You have beliefs, but ~if they're in opposition to facts, ~you're, ~you shouldn't be trading. You shouldn't be basically advising clients on your beliefs. You should be advising clients on the facts, ~right? ~I like to say,

Julia Chung: And what's meaningful to that person, not what for some reason you're hanging your whole personality against.

And I think it's important to note that FPAC is not a regulatory body and it's not a designating body and we don't intend to be either. And the [00:11:00] reason why I think that's important is because when you think about what actually changes a society. Yes, regulations, rules, designations, all of those things are important.

~We have those. ~But what really changes people's behavior is the influence of their peers. That is what moves the needle on people's behavior. So we can definitely, and should definitely, have rules, regulations, and standards in place. Of course. But how we change people's behavior is by demonstrating it and showing them the right way.

And that's the role of FPAP.

Jason Pereira: Yep. And rolling and basically working with the ecosystem that exists in order to make that happen. One of the things that happened with regulators when we first started speaking to them was, we told them like, we know what the industry is you want to move the bar an inch and they act like you shot them to the heart.

And we're telling you like, look, you don't need to move it an inch. You need to move it a mile. And because this is our unified vision. And frankly, you may have gotten it wrong [00:12:00] here and here, but this is how you fix it. And we'll support you on that. And the response was, where have you been all this time?

Cause like they are just used to, basically the entrenched interests of whatever organizations or money making machines are there that like the status quo. But you're talking about creating higher duty of care. Wait a minute. How's this going to affect sales? That's not what we're here for.

So there's that. And then, again, I'll go back to the mechanism of the charter. I'd like to say when we drafted it, it was like, look, you read the charter and see what I want to create as a professional we're basically saying we want to create the world of unicorns, rainbows, and puppies, right?

This is, these are all, you read these and okay, what is wrong with this vision, right? What is wrong with having a highly educated population of professionals based on actual science that, ~basically hold out their, ~hold out the client's best interest at heart at all times.

~And. Trans, ~and basically disclose everything. What is wrong with that vision? If you don't like that vision, and you don't want to join because of that vision, congratulations, we filtered you out. Thank you very much. You can see the door. And I don't know that I want to engage with you, right? Unless, I'm happy to have a dialogue about where you think the problems are, but I don't know that you are cut from [00:13:00] the same cloth, quite honestly.

Julia Chung: And I really have found that the majority of ~People that I've met and it's I won't say it's all of them, but the majority of people I've met ~who go in to working in Financial advice in one way or another are doing it because they want to help people the stories I've heard from financial planners about their own lives experiences their families ~the ~all the people that they've seen impacted by these Very difficult decisions that people have to face every day with the complexity of all of their finance and their legal and their taxes and their insurance and their investments.

It's really hard decision making. And the majority of people I've met are doing this because they want to help. And I believe ~really ~strongly that where the barriers are, it's not coming from the people providing the service. It's coming from the structures that were existed to extract maximum profit from this very valuable service.

And that is not to say that I have a problem with profit. I am a big fan of money. That's why I'm in [00:14:00] a money business. I like money and I want my clients to have good money as well. But I think there's a place where everybody wins from the people who are providing the service to the people who are receiving the service.

And it doesn't have to be, the snake oil thing.

Jason Pereira: Yeah. The industry was born in basically product and sales distribution. And financial planning came about because of it. So it's not unusual that these structures are lagging behind in terms of how they basically serve as clients and how ~basic ~even advisors in the industry see themselves.

~And, ~but, as we said before, the impact that we can have in people's lives is immense, right? Who else sits across from you and proactively says, how do I make your life better? You go to a doctor when you're sick. You go to a lawyer if you have to. You hope never to. You go to an accountant because you have to.

But, who actually sits there and says, how do I make it better?

Julia Chung: 100%. And who holds your hand when you're running across something that's really difficult? In the newsletter I wrote for my company in December, I gave three [00:15:00] stories. That really impacted me of some of the work I did with clients just in that month.

And there was, a family that was dealing with mom who had dementia and dad who had just passed away. Another couple where ~well, ~husband has dementia and wife has to put 'em into a home. I've got a widow who husband passed away. I've got families with disabled children. People are making really tough decisions and.

It's so important that we're able to give them really good advice that is about the people that they are, and the things that are important to them, and that they can find their way through all of these difficult times in their lives, knowing that the money part, ~which can be, ~which can feel really stressful, knowing that bit is handled And then they can move on to dealing with the emotional and relational kind of aspects because they know that this is dealt with.

That is huge. It's so impactful to every planner that I have communicated with. And everybody has a story that are like, that's why I'm here. That's [00:16:00] what's important. And those are the people we want to be. ~We, ~and I think FPAC makes it possible.

Jason Pereira: I like to say money is the construct for helping us get what we want out of life, and that's basically it, but at the end of the day, life is messy.

So yes, we can very technically handle all of this other stuff, our greatest gift is the ability to take the money decision off the table, potentially, and make sure people are well. ~I think of, ~I think of a case I had where, ~one of my, ~one of my favorite clients, lovely gentleman came down with this condition that was going to have dementia and was going to need to the need for home care and whatever else.

And I basically had a, his son calls me all worried about, how my parents could afford all this. And I'm like, let me talk to your mom. And I called the mom are you okay with me? Sharing financial details, whatever, boom, was able to hop on the call with the son ~and basically both, both the boys ~and put their minds at ease saying, look, we've, we plan for this.

~We plan for things going wrong. They're in a great position. ~He's going to be your mom and dad are going to be just fine. And ~the amount ~the permission for them to just not worry about that, but go just take care of their dad. That was ~immense.~

Julia Chung: Yes. ~That, ~that is the difference and that's why, truly professional financial planning that gives people great guidance, direction, understanding is so much [00:17:00] more than what we often see in the industry.

~Asking~

Jason Pereira: people's money in different accounts and whatever. ~That's a mechanism. And ~here's a bunch of

Julia Chung: charts and you're going to be okay. ~See ya. Buy some stuff. ~That's not financial planning.

Jason Pereira: It's when the plan goes wrong. Not because of us, but because of life.

Julia Chung: Because life will always go wrong, and we've got that baseline of, a first, starting out plan, and we've got things sorted, and then life goes crazy, ~and ~Then we say, okay, so how are we going to manage this?

Oh this is how the change that we're talking about will impact that kind of linear approach, which, I think that's where the rubber hits the road when it comes to truly professional financial planning.

Jason Pereira: I think this is an important message for people listening to this is that it's not a verb.

~It's not a noun, it's a verb, right? ~Too often, ~the plan, ~by many institutions, or many people, or some in the media, think, okay, I need this plan, ~I need this thing, ~I need this document that tells me what to do. And I always say two things. A, it's useless without implementation, so that's the most important part.

But secondly, ~It's not, ~it's a snapshot, right? ~Like ~the saying is that it's out of date the second you hand it [00:18:00] over, which is partially true, but at the end of the day, the reality is that we have to, ~that's the baseline. ~It tells us what to do and things can move on forward, but we have to constantly be updating and adapting that as life throws the curve balls at us.

Otherwise nothing's going to come of it.

Julia Chung: One of my favorite things that happened, just at the beginning of the pandemic, I got calls from all of these journalists and I kept getting the same question. How are you planning now? You don't know what's coming next. And the answer was When do I

Jason Pereira: ever know what's coming next?

Julia Chung: Here's the secret. I never did. I am not a fortune teller. And what we are doing when we are planning is taking the information we have today and thinking about what we want in the future and creating a strategy to get there. That's all it is. It's just the best things we can figure out. And I often say think about the next trip that you're planning.

You probably know that you're going to need this much gas, you want to make sure your tires are checked, you're packing your clothes, [00:19:00] you know you've got stops along the way. ~And you've got your safety kit, just in case things go wrong. ~But, things will go wrong. There's going to be construction along the road.

There's going to be, the next gas station isn't going to have ketchup chips. Who knows? ~But ~hopefully you're well equipped to handle those changes as they happen. ~And, ~you have the ability to take a detour. If, there's a sinkhole that opens up in front of you and something needs to change ~and that's ~hopefully your financial planner, if they're doing a great job, is able to be there with you and help you make those tweaks and changes as stuff happens.

Jason Pereira: That's it. Exactly. And ketchup chips are slowly becoming a running joke on this podcast. Thanks to Daniel Crosby saying that they're terrible. ~I'm going to prove him wrong one day. Anyway and that's what makes, that's what makes this podcast Canadian. ~He doesn't like coffee crisp.

Julia Chung: I'm guessing he doesn't.

~If you don't like, I'm going to message~

Jason Pereira: him out to this just to get his opinion. ~You~

Julia Chung: should find out if he likes coffee.

Jason Pereira: Anyway, so let's go back to the organization. Okay. So basically, let's talk about what it is. You mentioned a couple of interesting things there talking about getting access to the big brains of everybody who ~basically ~is a member of the organization, talking about the continual education, talk to me about.

FPAC ~does there ~and how that's potentially different than other organizations and how that helps build a better industry. [00:20:00]

Julia Chung: I think the core thing is you look at some of the great services we have, and I'll talk through them, but the core thing about it, think want to Absolutely love is we've very thoughtfully and carefully created a community that is psychologically safe.

So we have this great online forum where you can go and you can say, Hey, I'm working on this. And, has anybody run across this before, or I'm looking for an expert in this, or, I'm trying to figure out. ~Something, ~whatever it is that you're working on, you can go to our forum, you can post your question and you are going to have some of the very best minds in our profession coming at you with answers, experience, white papers that they've written.

We've got professors who are sharing their expertise, you are getting the highest quality advice for the very specific things that you are working on, and you're being cheered on by the entire community. And the psychological safety component of this is the most [00:21:00] important part. If people didn't feel safe saying, Hey, I'm running across something, and I don't know how to deal with it.

We wouldn't get the incredible value that we're getting out of the forum. And I think what's great about our community is that we're all there saying, we know that we don't know everything. That's literally impossible. So we're here to share. And we have all these people who are saying, hey, I've got something to share.

And they feel really good about sharing. And they feel really good about asking. The engagement with our forum is absolutely shocking. The vast majority of our members are on there either posting, reading, or replying daily. It's really incredible. Sometimes people will ask me, how big is your team?

When they're talking about working with me, I'm like, oh, it's, I've got hundreds of people on my team. Don't you worry,

Jason Pereira (3): ~Literally, ~I'm ~looking at someone who still hasn't been privileges is ~looking at the numbers now. For a small organization, getting over 15 topics on average per month [00:22:00] and over 350 responses and over 15, 000 page views, there's a lot of information sharing collaboration going on there.

And it's been, called the single greatest resource in Canadian financial planning, quite honestly, and frankly, maybe close to my heart, but the reality is I challenge someone to find a better one. Thank you.

Julia Chung: You can't. And I've been on lots of different ones and there's lots of great forms out there that are fabulous, but there's just something special and unique about this one.

And I do think it comes down to the culture that we've created where we are saying, I don't know everything, and that's okay. And I'm going to ask for help because our goal is to improve the financial planning that every Canadian is receiving. And we're doing that by supporting each other. And then, the other piece is we've got our monthly education.

amazing education. I'm so proud of it. Once a month we have wonderful speakers that come on and talk to us about all kinds of things that are important in financial planning. And [00:23:00] we learn more and more. We've got, every year we've got a tax, update. We've got a really great, accountant that comes on and shares with us.

Every year, things that have changed stuff, we should know it's super useful. And he's very funny, but we have really unique things that people might not think are financial planning related. So like our December, 2024 was what you need to know about fertility law in Canada. And I would say that a lot of people might be like how is this a financial planning thing?

But let me tell you, it is

Jason Pereira: December. Was that me in December? ~I can't remember. ~

Julia Chung: We're in November.

Jason Pereira: I was in November. ~Okay, fair enough. That was a ~

Julia Chung: big surprise.

Jason Pereira: Financial planning for corporations.

Julia Chung: Jason has been doing a series about financial planning for in court for corporations, but we, and then, we've got unusual things around law.

We've got, strategic planning. We've had risk management. We had All kinds of things. And next year, 2025, we're really looking forward to it. We've got some pretty [00:24:00] cool stuff coming. And what's great is the engagement there as well. The same sort of community feeling that we have in the forum, where people feel safe to ask questions and give answers.

That happens with every one of our online webinars. We've, Don't ever have enough time for all the questions people ask and it's so funny because you've hosted these as well. You look in the Q& A and people are answering each other's questions that they're asking the people. And just at the end of last year, we finally got the systems in place so that all of our events are recorded.

So you can, they were recorded, but now that CE credits for watching them. But we're watching the recorded version rather than live, which was really exciting. And not only do we have every education event that FPAC has put on, we've actually got all the education events that were put on by FPAC's predecessor organization, the advice only planners forum.

So we've got ~another, ~about 30 that are being uploaded and added there as well. [00:25:00]

Jason Pereira: Fantastic. ~So basically, ~Now, let's say someone wants to work with an FPAC advisor. Where do they go?

Julia Chung: Oh you've got a directory. ~So at fpassociation. ca, ~just go on to the directory and you can find every single member right

Jason Pereira: ~there.~

Every single member. Perfect. And, yeah, I would always also say never just look at one, look for multiple. And we've also, ~to our directory, if I remember correctly, it's the old directory, Areas of specialization, right? ~Don't limit yourself based on postal code and city you're in. You can work with someone fantastic from all over the country and specifically look for someone who knows your situation.

~And~

Julia Chung: also if that would, another thing that I think is great is if you do talk to somebody at FPAC and. They determine through that conversation that maybe they're not the right fit for you. They will go to the forum and they will say hey This is somebody who's looking for this kind of advice in this kind of arena.

It's not me How can you help and everybody will step in and say oh that is me or I know so and so is great at that So even talking to one FPAC member does get you the opportunity to get access to every single FPAC member

Jason Pereira: Yeah. Excellent. ~Before we close out, ~any final thoughts, [00:26:00] of advice for anyone who's in the market for a financial planner?

Julia Chung: Remember to look for somebody who is, in fact, a financial planner. There is a difference between financial advisor and financial planner. And it's so important to go in saying, what do I want? What am I looking for, as opposed to saying what do they provide and do I fit into their box. Look for, start with what's important to me, what kind of support and help do I need.

And then you can go to the FPAC directory and say, I think it might be this one. And ~again, ~if you don't get it totally right, ~and what's great is ~that person is going to help you find the right person with the expertise for you. So ~again, ~start with you. Remember that it's really important to understand what sort of help that you need.

And if you're not totally clear on that, that's fair. Think about, first and foremost, what you want to achieve, and that will help define what sort of support you're looking for.

Jason Pereira: Fantastic. Julia, thank you so much for taking the time.

Julia Chung: Thanks for having me on [00:27:00] here.

Jason Pereira: ~And also thank you for the work.~

It is a volunteer position that I know all too well how much time that can take. Keep in mind these are people, anyone works there is a volunteer and ~it's ~it's coming out of passion for the industry. ~So ~

Julia Chung: thank you.

Jason Pereira: So that was today's financial planning for Canadian business owners.

If you liked this podcast, please, now that we're on YouTube, and subscribe, apparently that's the thing I got to say now. But if you're listening to conventional methods, remember to leave a review on Apple podcasts, SoundCloud, Spotify, Rezeeter podcasts. Until next time, take care

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