Donating Before You Exit with Jennifer Couldrey | E036

How startups can embed philanthropy into their corporate culture.

In this episode of Financial Planning for Canadian Business Owners, Jason Pereira, award-winning financial planner, university lecturer, and writer, interviews Jennifer Couldrey, the Executive Director of The Upside Foundation of Canada, an organization that enables equity donations by Canadian founders looking to make a difference!

Episode Highlights: 

  • 1:20 – Jennifer Couldrey introduces Upside Foundation.

  • 2:14 – How did Jennifer get into this business and how did Upside Foundation get its start?

  • 3:52 – Jennifer breaks down The Upside model.

  • 5:56 – Why are these Canadian founders interested in donating equity?

  • 8:05 – Jason and Jennifer talk about how Upside Foundation thrives in the long-game.

  • 9:07 – What does a typical deal look like and what factors play into these parameters?

  • 10:59 – Where are the donations being directed?

  • 13:01 – Is this a one-time donation or a continuously-managed fund?

  • 14:59 – Jason and Jennifer discuss how people view different charities.

  • 21:12 – What is the feedback that Upside Foundation is receiving both before and after their clients’ exit events?

  • 25:57 – If Jennifer could change one thing in her industry, what would it be?

  • 29:12 – What has been the biggest challenge of getting Upside Foundation to where it is today?

  • 30:25 – What motivates Jennifer to get up every day and push forward with Upside Foundation’s mission?

3 Key Points

  1. Canadian founders use Upside Foundation as a way to make a palpable impact in their communities.

  2. Companies are presented with the option of donating via stock options or personal proceeds to the cause of their choice.

  3. 90% of charitable donations are donated to elite donations such as universities, hospitals, and larger organizations that decide where the money should be allocated.

Tweetable Quotes:

  • “It’s a way of embedding this charitable impact into your business from day one.” – Jennifer Couldrey

  • “Part of the reason we have the flexibility to give through stock options or to give through personal proceeds is just to make that decision really easy for people.” – Jennifer Couldrey

  • “Having the ability to course correct is a valuable luxury that I think that is afforded through having these endowments paying out small amounts over large amounts.” – Jason Pereira

  • “When people think about charity, they usually think about helping the poor...but if you actually look at where charitable dollars go, 90% of charitable dollars are going to help elite institutions.” – Jennifer Couldrey

  • “When you have something, it’s hard to give it up. The bigger that number is, the harder it is to cut that check.” – Jason Pereira

Resources Mentioned:

Transcript:

Producer: Welcome to The Financial Planning for Business Owners Podcast. You will hear about industry insights  with award-winning financial planner and entrepreneur, Jason Pereira. Through the interviews with  different experts, with their stories and advice, you will learn how you can navigate the challenges of  being an entrepreneur, plan for success and make the most of your business and life. And now your  host, Jason Pereira. 

Jason Pereira: Hello, and welcome. Today on the show, I have Jennifer Couldrey of the Upside Foundation. The Upside  Foundation helps organizations incorporate charitable giving into their ethos, and from an early stage.  What they do essentially is they organize gifts of equity to their foundation so that on the event of an  exit, that money will go to a charitable organization. And with that, here's my interview with Jennifer.  Hello, Jennifer. 


Jennifer Couldrey: Hi, Jason. How are you? 

Jason Pereira: Good. Good. Thanks for your time today. 

Jennifer Couldrey: Oh, my pleasure. This is one of my favorite topics. So very happy to chat with you about this today. 

Jason Pereira: It should be that what everybody does should be their favorite topic. I mean, hopefully we should all be  so passionate about what it is we do. So Jennifer Couldrey of the Upside Foundation, tell us about the  Upside Foundation of Canada or Upside Foundation, for short. 

Jennifer Couldrey: Yeah. So the Upside Foundation is a charity that works with early stage high growth companies who  want to give back and embed social responsibility into the DNA of their company, by enabling them to  donate equity in their company for charity. So the way that it works is that when you're at an early  stage, which could be, you're just getting your company started, there's just one or two of you, or it  could be that you've raised a hundred million dollars, but you plan to be a billion dollar company one  day. They will give us either stock options or personal proceeds in their company. And then the idea is  that when you sell your company or go public one day, all the proceeds from the options you've given us  are then donated to the charity of your choice. So it's a way of embedding this charitable impact into  your business from day one. 

Jason Pereira: Excellent. So we're going to come back into how those conversations get started and how this all works.  But before we get started, tell me about your history and the history of the foundation, how this came  to be. 

Jennifer Couldrey:Yeah. So personally I always felt it was important that business gifts back, and business has a broader  role in contributing to society. And I've sort of taken multiple iterations throughout my career.  Originally, I thought I wanted to go into international development. So I spent a lot of time in Africa  working with some small social enterprises there. Decided that the international development route was  not for me. So went into a more traditional corporate consulting environment after I graduated from  business school. So I worked at Deloitte for about five years, helping companies align around their goals  and get really clear on what success looked like. And then from there I shifted, I wanted to have more of  an impact focus in my career. 


Jennifer Couldrey: So started working in corporate social responsibility consulting, helping companies to measure and  benchmark their giving programs, and then landed at the Upside Foundation. So Upside was started at  about eight years ago by a team of venture capitalists and consultants who wanted to make it easier for  Canadian tech companies to give back. So they looked at a few models around the world and built  Upside based off of some of the best practices we've seen in other places, such as the U.S. and Israel. So  they started this eight years ago, ran it entirely volunteer based as they bought the legal infrastructure  and the accounting infrastructure in place, got the first 50 companies onboard and then hired me to run  the organization four and a half years ago. 

Jason Pereira: All right. So basically tell us about the model. So in a nutshell, how do you source these deals? Where do  these things come from? What does the structure look like? Start to finish a company? How does the  company find you? How do you find them, and how does this progress? 

Jennifer Couldrey: Yeah. So since we've been around for eight years, we've worked really hard to embed ourselves in the  Canadian tech ecosystem. So we used to go to a ton of events. I used to go to four or five events a week,  whether it be sort of events at incubators and accelerators or events that VCs were hosting, or those  sort of broader industry events like a TechTO. So we've met a lot of people that way. Because of who is  on our board and who our founders are, we had a lot of really great connections with the VC  community. So we had a lot of great relationships there from an early stage. So that was sort of early  days. It's mostly [crosstalk 00:04:27] 

Jason Pereira: Sorry, hold on. I got to stop for a sec, but how many of these VCs are telling people to give away equity?  [inaudible 00:04:31] 

Jennifer Couldrey: That is a great question, Jason. So I think it's a very complex relationship between a VC and a founder  that they've invested in, right? 

Jason Pereira: Yeah. 

Jennifer Couldrey: So VCs already taken a fair share of their equity. So some VCs are more vocal than others, but many  have said, we've already taken some of their equity. We can't exactly ask them to give up more. What  the VCs that are supportive do say is, we are happy to support you, because often if you're going to  issue options, you need board support. The VCs often sit on your board. So they will say to their  companies, if this is something that you would like to do, we are very supportive of it. We will rally the  board together to get them to support this. So they are very supportive, but they are cautious of the  message coming from a VC that you should give away more of your equity. 

Jason Pereira: Yes. It's like, we just bent you over backwards on evaluation to get as much of this as we could possibly  get, but now we're telling you that you should also give some away for nothing. Yeah, it's an interesting  dichotomy there. 

Jennifer Couldrey: Yeah. 

Jason Pereira: So, I mean, in general it seems pretty straight forward, right? I mean, you're committing to it early,  which is both simultaneously cheap and expensive at the same time. Right? I mean, you're giving away  shares that are worth maybe, very early on next to, very little or hypothetical value. And then down the  road, depending on your degree of success, it could be a very costly gift. So what's the motivation in  general. So let's talk about the founders motivation that you've spoken to. 

Jennifer Couldrey: Yeah. 


Jason Pereira: Why is it they're interested? 


Jennifer Couldrey: So, I mean, if you look at human beings generally, most people want to make an impact in the world.  They want to do something good. They want to feel like they spent their time on earth doing something  that helped others, and it moved the world forward in some way. So we already see a lot of founders,  especially today wanting to have an impact with their company. And there's a lot of ways that  companies can have an impact through their customers and the work they do at them through their  employees, and the way they treat them through other sort of charitable giving, community focused  initiatives. But one of the ways that's very common is charitable giving through philanthropy. And so  usually when you see a company going through a process like this and a founder walking away from this  with a vast amount of wealth, usually you'll see them wanting to engage in philanthropy regardless,  right? 

Jennifer Couldrey: If you end up making millions or billions of dollars, you're likely going to end up doing something  philanthropic with it anyways. So what our model is saying, if you're already planning to do that, why  not instead of waiting until the day you have that wealth, to commit to it today? Because we believe there is actually a lot of value in committing to something like this upfront, because then it's not about  saying, oh, that's so nice of that founder so generously gave it away. It's about, this is the value that this  company embodies and that everyone who works there, everyone who buys from them knows that they  are supporting a company that is giving back to the community. And every bit of value this company has,  is increasing the value of what is actually going to go back to the community. So it just creates this whole  nother level of commitment and values alignment with all of your stakeholders. 

Jason Pereira: I mean, and this is a long game, right? Because I mean, the reality is, is that the foundation is not going  to see any money from this until either A, the company gets to a point where they're large enough to  actually start spitting out dividends. If that's where they're going to go, or more likely, especially the goal  of every tech company or every startup is, is the exit event. Right? 

Jennifer Couldrey: Mm-hmm (affirmative). [crosstalk 00:07:54] 

Jason Pereira: So that, especially, it could be a while off. So you're talking the better part of a decade in most cases,  before you start seeing those. And I'd say, if they end up going the public route even longer in most  cases. 

Jennifer Couldrey: So, I mean, we're typically banking on sort of five to 10 years for those that do see a liquidity event, we  know that many will not unfortunately get there, but it is definitely a long-term game. We have seen  seven companies so far have an exit event and we've raised $1.3 million for charity so far. So we're  starting to see those and I will call them liquidity events versus exits, because we like to say, IPO or  acquisition, but usually it's some very bizarre convoluted format in between those. So we are seeing  them happening, but it is few and far between. And we expect those to sort of ramp up in volume and in  infrequency and in amount as time goes on, and as more and more of our companies get more and  more mature. But yes, it certainly is a long-term game that requires a lot of patience. 

Jason Pereira: Excellent. Yeah, no doubt. So what's a typical deal look like? How much would you say that they're  generally giving to the foundation and is that dependent upon level of growth? Are you seeing any kind  of variables that determine just how much of the company they're giving up? 

Jennifer Couldrey: Yeah. So typically the guidance we give to companies is to say, about 1% of the company. Obviously  that's a lot easier for an early stage company to do then a later stage company to do, but there are  examples globally of companies giving away 1% of the company, even right before an IPO. Or there's  some interesting models coming out of the States where people will pledge to donate 1% over a 10 year  period. So they'll donate 0.1% right before the IPO and then pledge another 0.1% every year after that  IPO. So it's really interesting to see the models people come up with. But part of the reason we have the  flexibility to give through stock options or to give through personal proceeds, is just to make that  decision really easy for people. So we've seen people give stock options when they are just starting out, and there's two people at the company. We've seen people give stock options when they've raised a  hundred million dollars already. 

Jennifer Couldrey: So it's very doable, especially for companies that have an employee stock option plan in place. They  already have this structure, they've already gotten approval for it. They simply need to convert the  definition of an eligible participant to include a charity in addition to employees, advisors, typical folks,  you'd see. We also have the option to do personal proceeds. So for those folks that say, one founder is  on board, the other is not, or half our board is supportive, the other half is not. Then personal proceeds  is super simple. It basically just says, I, Jason, will give away 1%, 5%, whatever it is of whatever I walk  away from this company with. So you need no one else's permission. It doesn't go on your cap table.  Some people really like it being on the cap table, because it means no one else can touch it. Some  people would rather keep it personal. So it's super flexible to whatever works for you. 

Jason Pereira: Excellent. So talk to me about the charitable aspect of this then. So the money's there, let's say the exit  event happens, where is this being directed? How much determination do they have over what charities  benefit? 

Jennifer Couldrey: So we really wanted to ensure that this was able to be embedded in either your personal interests or  your company values. So it is up to the company which charity they want to support. Other models  we've seen globally. They have a dedicated portfolio of charities to choose from. We've opted to make it  really open for anyone to choose the cause they care about. So we'll see some people walking in already  having a very strong connection to a charity often with either someone who's helped them in their  career. So an incubator or accelerator that is, a charity, or maybe a health-related charity that is dealing  with something that someone in their family or their close friend group has dealt with. So we often see  that. So Sensibill is one of my favorite examples. When they originally pledged, they didn't have a charity  in mind, and then as they grew their company, they launched a robust corporate social responsibility  program focused on mental health. 

Jennifer Couldrey: And as part of that, they allocated their Upside [inaudible 00:11:57] each. So Upside was a component  of that, but they also had volunteer opportunities and employee development opportunities related to  mental health. So a full sort of CSR program with their Upside allocated to a specific charity there that the employees were rallying around. So you can choose any cause you want. We even see some people  setting up their own foundations after this. And I know I've had multiple people reach out saying, we're  in the process of setting up our own foundation for after this. And that is fully eligible. As long as it's a  registered charity, you can set up your Upside through us and then have 100% of those proceeds go to  the charity that you started after you had your liquidity event. 

Jason Pereira: Interesting. So, and a lot of inherent flexibility as to when it goes, where it goes. I mean, the triggering  event is that is the big issue, right? That's where the money flows in at which point [crosstalk 00:12:46]  There's got to be a decision around there. Right? So tell me, so that brings up the next question is, so is this a one-time endowment? The triggering event happens, the money comes in, is this a one-time  endowment to those charities or is there some sort of fund that's being managed on an ongoing basis? 

Jennifer Couldrey: So at this point, typically the money comes in and within a few months it has all been deployed. So it's  either going to, as you said, someone's foundation that they've set up or to specific charities, and  sometimes people will split between multiple charities. So it's typically going out right away. Should we  get to a point where we're having $10 million a year coming in and donations, then it might make sense  for us to manage those funds and deploy them on an ongoing basis. But at this point, it's typically all the  money flows out to the charities as quickly as possible. 

Jennifer Couldrey: It's really interesting from a philanthropy perspective, there was a great debate about whether it's  better to set up an endowment that lasts for a long time or whether it's better to get the money out  quickly. And there's valid arguments on both sides. I think, especially in today's environment during  COVID, when many people in the world are struggling more than they've ever struggled before, there's a  valid argument to be made to deploying capital as quickly as possible to try to set people up for success  better, rather than saying, I'll give you a little bit over the next 30 years, let's just really make an impact  today. Hoping that, that lets people build a better future over there. 

Jason Pereira: Yeah. I mean, I can see that, but I also think that there's also, sometimes it's clouding it. Right? So for  example, there are a number of charities that have sizable endowments already, right? So if you cut that  one check, it's just going in their pile to be paid out over 10 years. Right? 

Jennifer Couldrey: Right. 

Jason Pereira: So I think it just comes down to not just only personal preference, but who is it you want to support?  And is that something that could change over time, right? We've had donor advice fund companies on  before, and if your priorities change over time or [crosstalk 00:14:34] the charity changes its mission  over time, because that happens. Right? 

Jennifer Couldrey: Absolutely. 

Jason Pereira: And you want to, or the charity gets involved in some ridiculous scandal and you're like, well, that's  where my money's been going. Having the ability to course correct is a valuable luxury that I think that is  afforded through having these endowments pay out small amounts over large amounts. So I guess it just  depends on, it really is such a personal preference as to who it is you want to support, why you want to  support them and what the money is going towards. I think it's just, there's no wrong answer. 

Jennifer Couldrey:Absolutely. And I think donor advised funds are similar to the sort of foundations we were talking about  earlier. And that's definitely a great vehicle, as you said, for flexing and letting as the world evolves, and  as you evolve, being able to change where your funds are going. I think it's really interesting to observe  how people think about charities and which charities are worth supporting. So I mean the classic metric that people use to talk about a charities' effectiveness is percentage of dollars that goes to  administration, which is actually often not a relevant metric, right? [crosstalk 00:15:30] 

Jason Pereira: No, it's a real red herring. It is really misunderstood. I'll let you go into it. I can go on my rant after. 

Jennifer Couldrey: Well, you may have seen the same Ted talk that I've seen from Dan Pallotta. He wrote a book called,  Uncharitable. He has an amazing Ted talk that talks about how broken of a metric that is. So his example  was, he was running an organization that was doing a bike-a-thon type thing. And they would raise, say  a hundred million dollars a year for charity, but they would spend 50 million on this. And they just got  slaughtered in the press. Oh, 50% to administration. This is crazy. So they took all that away. But then of  course the event lost its ability to advertise. It lost its ability to effectively engage participants. So then  the next year they raised $4 million, but 90% of the money went to the cause. 

Jason Pereira: Yeah. 

Jennifer Couldrey: And you're like, so what's better? 

Jason Pereira: Yeah. I mean, let's be real. There's a cost of acquisition and administration of these things. Right? And  the examples I'll use is, there's a difference between giving money to a local hospital and whatever  charitable endeavor you're doing, and the amount of money it takes to raise that, versus define  administration. Right? If you we're working on African development work and you have to build a  runway for a plane to fly food in, what category that go under? Because that's not direct food being  given to the people, right? 

Jennifer Couldrey: Right. 

Jason Pereira: It's such a broken metric. And I really wonder to whose benefit, who is the people? What convoluted  view or whose self-serving benefit has this gone towards to basically say, well, oh, you shouldn't give it  to them because look how much they waste. But we're running at a 5% efficiency cost rate. Wait a sec,  did you just burn... I would love to know the history. I would love to know where this came from. 


Jennifer Couldrey: Yeah.

Jason Pereira: It's so misguided. 

Jennifer Couldrey: Well, and what's been really interesting this summer in particular. So with the black lives matter  movement and anti-racism movements that have touched many industries, this has also tests  philanthropy and has brought up some really interesting conversations in this space around who gets  funded. There was some stats coming out, and a lot of this is American, but I think similar statistics  would apply in Canada that when people think about charity, they usually think about helping the poor.  For example, that's a very common way people think about this, but if you actually look at where  charitable dollars go, 90% of charitable dollars are going to help elite institutions. 

Jennifer Couldrey: So universities, hospitals that are [crosstalk 00:17:43] not actually helping the poor in any way. And even  when you look at, so say you want to support grassroots organizations. Most of the money that goes to  them is actually given to a more credible, larger, more established foundation that has better  governance, who then doles out little bits to these grassroots organizations led by people of color. So  philanthropy is having a real reckoning right now, looking at how dollars are allocated. 

Jason Pereira: Yeah. I'm not sure if you ever saw or heard about Malcolm Gladwell's meltdown on Twitter, about the  largest endowment ever given to Harvard. And he's like, oh yeah, great, congratulations. You made it so  then more rich kids can go to a rich kid school. Oh my God. Let's just murder you. [crosstalk 00:18:23] 

Jennifer Couldrey: And then Harvard then turned around and accepted something like $10 million in government aid  during this while their endowment of millions and millions of dollars sits there [crosstalk 00:18:30] 

Jason Pereira: Yeah. He actually on his podcast, which by the way, if you've been listening to that, is utterly fantastic.  Revisionist History. There was one where he entrapped the head. I think it was Stanford or something  like that, and said, okay, let's just imagine... He basically made the case for how unbelievably well funded they were. He said, okay, let's just imagine someone gives you a billion dollars. What would you  do with that? Do you think you can make the use of that? You think it would be better given to this  organization who helps like all these, and you know what? A guy's job is to basically spend money on his  university. He's going to find a way to spend money on his university. [crosstalk 00:19:03] 

Jennifer Couldrey: Sure. [crosstalk 00:19:03] 

Jason Pereira: Well, if I'm spit balling, this is how I would do it. And he's just like... You can just picture him face  palming himself, and the entire thing, saying, you're missing the God damn point. You have enough. And  yeah, I've heard this problem. I know this problem quite well. I mean, I will profile the Toronto hospitals for instance, right? Princess Margaret owns the lottery world, man. Owns the lottery. I've got my ticket  too. Right? [crosstalk 00:19:26] 

Jennifer Couldrey: Wait, those houses Jason. 

Jason Pereira: Hey. And it's just like, oh, it's going to Princess Margaret. And people are like, wait a minute. This isn't a  charitable donation? No, it's a lottery. Right? You don't get to deduct your lottery tickets. Right? 

Jennifer Couldrey: Yeah. 

Jason Pereira: And I've done work with sick kids besides personal stories I have with that place. How do I ever say, no,  to sick children? 

Jennifer Couldrey: Right. 

Jason Pereira: Right? 

Jennifer Couldrey: Yeah. 

Jason Pereira: But [crosstalk 00:19:44] 

Jennifer Couldrey: They do amazing work. 

Jason Pereira: They do amazing work, and I don't want to discredit that work, but for the bright, shiny object of, oh, I'm  going to give money to them because they're awesome. How many other countless charities just  struggle? 

Jennifer Couldrey: Yeah. 

Jason Pereira: That have... It's like anything else? It's the 80, 20 rule, right? 80% of the funding goes to 20% of the  causes, but that doesn't [crosstalk 00:20:03]

Jennifer Couldrey: Actually, in Canada [crosstalk 00:20:06] 

Jason Pereira: Oh, are you going to break my heart? 

Jennifer Couldrey: It's actually over 80% of the funding goes to 1% of the charities. 

Jason Pereira: Oh, my God. Oh. This is where umbrella organizations that dole it out are valuable because they can  pool resources on marketing, but that's... Okay. Deep breath. That's unfortunate. Oh, okay. [crosstalk  00:20:23] So let's get away from the depressing side of charity and get back to the good side, and what it  is you guys do. So I mean, essentially what you guys are, is that you are a platform that markets  philanthropy to businesses at an early stage of life to help them embed that into their culture and long term thinking, and essentially you're a pass through. Right? So if anything, that money is then being  flown through. 

Jason Pereira: So I'd say first off, well done. I think it's smart. You're basically doing something good. And it's not like  you're building this giant endowment yourself that you are managing and making all this money off of.  You're a total float through. So I don't think anyone can ever question your motives on that. So I love  that. So talk to me about the exists, the positive experiences that your partners have had in this. So  what's the feedback you're getting from the companies that have participated both before an exit event  and after an exit event. 

Jennifer Couldrey: So one of the things that makes Upside Foundation really valuable for people to be a part of is the  community. So we have a Slack community, we host regular events for our members during COVID. At  the beginning, we were hosting weekly events where every entrepreneur was saying, what am I  supposed to do right now? We don't know what to do. We were hosting regular events for them to get  together and connect with each other and learn from experts. So there was a really great community,  and we've actually seen a huge spike in demand for topics around social impact. So we've hosted a  number of workshops over the last few months on anti-racism and how our members are building anti racism concepts into their businesses, both from an HR perspective, as well as a product perspective and  a community perspective. So we host a lot of those types of things. 

Jennifer Couldrey: So a lot of the feedback we get is around how powerful people find it to find this space, where they can  connect with people who share their values and learn from each other about how they go about  building a business that is both very financially successful, and aligns with their ethics and morals and  values. In terms of the exits, we hear from people that they say, this was one of the most meaningful  and best parts of selling my business, that it felt so good to know that not only was I benefiting from this  and my employees and my investors, but that we were actually giving a very meaningful donation to a  charity. And they'll often say, if I had just received all this money, I probably wouldn't have written a check of this size at this point in time. But because it was already committed, there was no question  about that it was [crosstalk 00:22:50] 

Jason Pereira: Good on them for being honest. I mean, and you know what? There's an entire psychology behind this.  And a perfect example is something in the finance industry called, the annuity paradox or annuity  puzzle. There's these wonderful products called annuities that ensure your for longevity. And it's  puzzling my people. Don't buy them more. And I'm like, there's absolutely no puzzle whatsoever. It's  called, the endowment effect. When you have something it's hard to give it up. Right? 

Jennifer Couldrey: Mm-hmm (affirmative). 

Jason Pereira: And the bigger that number is, the harder it is to cut that check. So the fact that they're opting to cut a  check when that number is super small, and then relatively gets super large in comparison, yeah. I'm  sure many of them probably said, huh. That's a lot of money I gave up, but I gave it up a long time ago.  So what are we going to do about it? There's no going back. 

Jennifer Couldrey: Well, I mean, part of it is that you get taxed on your capital gains, whereas when we hold the asset, then  we're not taxed because we're a charity. So 100% of the proceeds go directly to charity. There's no tax  cut out of that. 

Jason Pereira: So then that begs an interesting question. How many donations do you get of shares in kind right before  the exit? 

Jennifer Couldrey: Jason, this is a tough question. Sometimes people will offer it to give shares far in advance. It makes  things more complicated for us in terms of a CRA perspective, not to get into boring details, but as  charity, you have an obligation to disperse 3.5% of your assets every year. If we're holding millions and  millions of dollars of assets that we hope will continue, or it will be worth more than they currently are,  it sets us up to have to distribute funds that we don't actually have liquid today. So most of the time  we're getting stock options. If it's closer to a liquidity event, it's easier. But I mean, we've seen many  times in the world that just, it's not over until it's over. 

Jason Pereira: Yeah, no kidding. No kidding. There's been more than one or two IPOs has pulled back from last minute  this year, and I'm not even talking about the disaster that was, WeWork. The joke that, that was. 

Jennifer Couldrey: Which the book is coming out soon. 

Jason Pereira:Oh, I've already heard the podcast. Have you heard, WeCrashed? That was fantastic. 

Jennifer Couldrey: Oh, I haven't seen that one. [crosstalk 00:24:57] 

Jason Pereira: Yeah. That's a good one. That's from [crosstalk 00:25:00] 

Jennifer Couldrey: The new book is called, Billion Dollar Loser. 

Jason Pereira: I have my own working theories on why that got as ridiculous as it did. And we can talk about that  offline, but it's [crosstalk 00:25:09] 

Jennifer Couldrey: Because I feel like we can have a whole conversation about that. 

Jason Pereira: Well, it's one of those ones that I feel like that one, I was watching a train wreck in real time before it  got to IPO. Every time a funding round happened, I'm like, this is going to end so poorly, and sure  enough. Anyway, so that's a side note. So we mentioned a couple other [inaudible 00:25:25] podcasts.  So overall, great work. I mean, bottom line is you guys are helping a lot of people, a lot of people in the  charities, in the charitable space. There were people who need that charitable support by partnering  with people who are high growth that basically, a lot of these people get into... A lot of entrepreneurs,  especially in this space are very purpose-driven and helping tap into that at an early stage. Like I said,  well done. So before we wrap up, there's three questions I ask everybody that basically gets you thinking  and end on a positive note, other than the WeWork scandal. So the first one is, if you had one wish for  something you could change in your company or an industry as a whole, what would it be? 

Jennifer Couldrey: So last year at Elevate, I saw Yancey Strickler, who was the CEO of Kickstarter speak. And I recently read  his book called, This Could Be Our Future. And his main topic of conversation is about how financial  maximization has become the default position for all of our decision making in society. And it basically  talks about this fact that we've completely over vectored many things in our government, in our  personal lives, and how we run businesses to focus more on financial value than on the other aspects of  value, such as health, such as wellness, such as creating strong livelihoods for people. And I really think  that if we're able to include those things in the calculation, alongside financial value, we can build an  economic system where we're not inherently creating the inequality that we've seen, especially  exasperated over COVID times. So that is the big change that I would like to see in individual company in  the industry and in the world as a whole. 

Jason Pereira: I had this conversation on countless occasions of the fact that all these quote unquote externalities, not  a, fit in a two by two matrix. So therefore, economics doesn't play well with them. But overall, economists have come around and have been coming around for a long time saying, no, these things  actually matter, which is how do you model for pollution in a two by two matrix? Right? And I always  say, and I don't care if he won the Nobel prize. I still refer to him as a crackpot. The Friedman doctrine.  I'm sorry. Yes. Thank you. You're you're raging over that. I'm like the entire thing where the only  responsibility is to basically profit within the rules. Assuming first off, you assume the rules are actually  sufficient enough to protect against that, and also [crosstalk 00:27:44] 

Jennifer Couldrey: Right. And haven't been dismantled in a very systematic way by corporate lobbies over the last  [crosstalk 00:27:48] year. 

Jason Pereira: To support the profit matrix in the first place, a profit it sent to them in the first place. But also, my  simple response has always been, really? Did you pull all the shareholders? Did you? Did you survey the  shareholders to say, we could make 1% less if by the way, we stopped dumping stuff in this lake. 

Jennifer Couldrey: Yeah. 

Jason Pereira: Did you ask them that? And if so, because last I saw, that's an agency issue, right? You are acting on  behalf of shareholders. Shareholders to assume that the only reason we care about something, the only  thing we care about is profit, is wrong. Don't get me wrong. I'm sure there are many people who do, but  that's not my world. That's not me. That's not every client I speak to. Anyway. Moving forward. 

Jennifer Couldrey: So, yes. I would. If I can comment [crosstalk 00:28:26] two more things, first. [crosstalk 00:28:26] First of  all, there are models for these things, right? If you look at insurance companies, insurance companies  definitely value climate change. So there are people [crosstalk 00:28:35] 

Jason Pereira: Oh, yeah. Well, that's fair enough. 


Jennifer Couldrey: Who from a financial perspective value these externalities. So that definitely exists. And second of all, I  think if you're interested in this topic, you would love Yancey's book, because he does a fascinating job  of walking through from the date 1972, when Milton Friedman published his, I think one of the most  damaging philosophies that has ever been published in the world, to today, and how that was slowly  indoctrinated through the business schools through [crosstalk 00:29:01] 

Jason Pereira: Oh, we'll come back to that. [crosstalk 00:29:02] And I'll get into Ayn Rand and Greenspan later, but  yeah. No, I mean, what a big surprise. You tell people to be selfish and a bunch of selfish people can act  selfishly.

Jennifer Couldrey: Yeah. 

Jason Pereira: Let's move forward. So second point, what has been the biggest challenge getting the organization to  where it is today? 

Jennifer Couldrey: I mean, one of the ones that we're looking at right now, which I think reflects a big question we've been  debating over the last few years is, what is the core brand promise that underpins the Upside  Foundation? So is it that we make it easy to give back? That's obviously what we do, or is it that we have  a community of values aligned founders, and giving back through us is just the price of entry to that  community, or is it that we help you feel really good about the type of business you're building. And  each of those should we pursue them, solely would have very different implications for the type of  activities we do and the way we engage with our members. So I think that's one of the core questions  that we're asking is, what do we want the core value we provide to be to our members? 

Jason Pereira: Well, I would also say, you don't have to overly focus on just one. So there's a list. Okay. 

Jennifer Couldrey: I mean, when you have two employees, sometimes you have to focus a little bit more. 

Jason Pereira: Yeah, but they're just bullets on a website. Right? Anyway, let's move on. So last question for you is,  what excites you the most about what it is you're working on and gets you out of bed every morning to  keep on fighting the good fight? And I think in your case, it's probably very easy. 

Jennifer Couldrey: I think it's really about... I mean, sorry, I'll go back to COVID again, we've never seen so much inequality  in the world. They talk about like the billions of dollars in wealth transfer that's happened over the last  few months from the poor to the wealthy, based on the structures we have. And so to me, the Upside  Foundation is one of the ways that we help ensure that those who win through the current economic  system are able to share those games with a broader subset of the population. So many of our members  are passionate about equally in the playing field and making sure that everybody has their basic needs  taken care of so that they all have the opportunity to rise. And that is what excites me about this, is the  opportunity to share those gains in a way that actually uplifts the whole country along with us. 

Jason Pereira: Excellent. And anyway, I want to thank you on two fronts. One, for taking the time to actually speak to  me about this. I very much appreciate it. And secondly, for just doing this in general, this is a fantastic  cause. 

Jennifer Couldrey: Thank you so much, Jason. It's a pleasure to get to work with so many founders who have such great  values and want to build such great businesses, and we hope we can help them be successful and make  a huge impact for Canada. 

Jason Pereira: Fantastic. Well, thank you. Take care. 

Jennifer Couldrey: Take care, Jason. 

Jason Pereira: So I hope you enjoyed that conversation, with Jennifer Couldrey with the Upside Foundation. And if you  are speaking with, or if you are an early stage company that's interested, I highly suggest you reach out  to them. As always, if you enjoyed this podcast, please leave a review on iTunes, Stitcher or wherever is  your podcast. Until next time, take care. 

Producer: This podcast was brought to you by Woodgate Financial, an award-winning financial planning firm,  catering to high net worth individuals, business owners, and their families. To learn more, go to  woodgate.com. You can subscribe to this podcast on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, Google Play, and Spotify,  or find more episodes at jasonpereira.ca. You can even ask Siri, Alexa or Google Home to subscribe for  you.

FPCBOJason PereiraPhilanthropy, Donating