Digital Assets On Death with Betsy Ehrenberg | E077

The biggest challenge in settling an estate today.

On today’s episode, Jason is going to talk to Betsy Ehrenberg. She is the CEO and founder of Legacy Concierge. Legacy Concierge is a service that helps people deal with digital assets after death. This is a newer problem in state planning, but one that cannot be underestimated. 

Episode Highlights:

  • 01.00: Betsy talks about how she enjoys talking about how people protect their assets and explain what digital assets are because they are all over the place, and most people are unaware of them. 

  • 01.15: Everyone has a digital footprint; people from 2 to 92 have information about them stored on computers, and that information is stored in digital form and electronic records, and therefore it is a digital asset. 

  • 02.08: Jason says that the bigger notion of the day is the concept of cryptocurrencies, which falls under the category of digital assets.

  • 03.08: The implication of having your digital footprints all-out means that someone can easily impersonate you, and they do it all the time. 

  • 04.43: Betsy says that there are other thefts that happen when people are not aware of their digital assets.

  • 05.49: Most recently, Apple created a process for authorizing someone else to access things if you are besieged, but that is one of the only technology companies that created a platform for doing that.

  • 06.33: As a Google user and as in Facebook user we have to sort of work our way into their applications to figure out where we actually put the email address and name of the person who can access our account, says Betsy.

  • 07.26: Every person who has a phone should be able to tell someone else how you get into my phone and why you want to do that because many accounts have worse cold multifactor authentication.

  • 08.00: If the fiduciary can’t open the phone even though a will or trust gives them legal authority, they will have great difficulty getting on to the accounts of the decedent or person who is disabled, says Betsy.

  • 10.06 Betsy says that due to Covid, over 700,000 people have died, and many of them were on LinkedIn. 

  • 12.40: There is a disconnect between customer service, the fiduciary, and the family and a major poor part of what our company does is an advocate for the family and when we have winds as we did with Apple with Google and with Facebook, says Betsy.

  • 13.35: Betsy says it took Facebook 15 months to release five years’ worth of data of a decedent and deliver it on a flash drive to the family.

  • 14.25 Jason says companies haven’t spent the time to standardize the process of how you are going to do this and deal with every day’s problems.

  • 14.43: Betsy points out that apple assigns a person who they are paying over $100,000 a year to talk to the fiduciary to physically look at documents. 

  • 17.48: Jason affirms as digital solutions are merged, they are going to do a little bit better of a job of nudging us to make sure we take advantage of them; otherwise, they won’t get implemented. 

  • 19.42: Jason asks Betsy, “Talk to me about what your service does to solve the problem for people.”

  • 21.12: Betsy says that we use search features of the standard search engines and show the fiduciary all the places that the decisions name is popping up and we recommend that they be removed.

  • 22.53: The procedures for closing with Bank of America change on a regular basis so, for our efficiency, we remain up to date and so we identify, review, we notify, and then we secure assets, says Betsy.

  • 24.21: The minute we start a process of locking accounts we have to use the procedures and follow through with them as they were as of date of death, not as they are today, says Betsy.

  • 25.00: Betsy explains, we first of all convince companies that this is a problem for them, not for us. They are wasting time and money and they are being cruel. They cannot have people in charge of this process. They must have what is called an API, an interface.

  • 27.36: Other investment companies have procedures in place now; maybe they weren’t placed in 2018, says Betsy.

  • 29.00: It is essential for the attorneys to discuss digital asset exposure with their clients, and if they don’t include any conditions or provisions for a digital executor, the beneficiaries can sue the attorney for creating a document at didn’t conform to the legislation that was in place when the document was created.

  • 29.08: In New York State, fiduciaries can be sued because they haven’t notified the state police that a firearm that was associated with a deceased person has been turned into the state within 15 days of the death.

3 Key Points:

  1. The digital footprint includes data and documents on your phone on your tablet, under laptop, in your desk, computer and many other computers that are controlled by others. Betsy raises very important concerns, who has access to your digital footprint? 

  2. As a person is approaching 70, they should start to create an inventory of what’s important.

  3. API interface the companies like legacy concierge, it notifies companies through a piece of software and that piece of software goes into their legacy applications and marks the file is frozen or deleted or transfers the assets from an existing account to another and then report back to us, explains Betsy.

Tweetable Quotes

  • “When people are grieving, they want to remember the decedent in positive terms.”- Betsy Ehrenberg 

  • “Have a discussion in a positive way that planning for a digital legacy is a gift to the next generation.”- Betsy Ehrenberg

  • “Impersonating is against the law, federal law and state law” - Betsy Ehrenberg

  • If a credit card is paying bills that are important for the House to stay in good working conditions.” - Betsy Ehrenberg

  • “In digital asset, Bitcoin is its challenge if you don’t have both the wallet ID and the private key.” – Jason.

Resources Mentioned

Transcript:

Producer: Welcome to the Financial Planning for Canadian Business Owners podcast. You will hear about industry  insights with award-winning financial planner and entrepreneur, Jason Pereira. Through the interviews  with different experts, with their stories and advice, you will learn how you can navigate the challenges  of being an entrepreneur, plan for success, and make the most of your business and life. And now your  host, Jason Pereira. 

Jason Pereira: Hello and welcome. Today on the show is Betsy Ehrenburg. She is the CEO and founder of Legacy  Concierge and Legacy Concierge is a service that helps people deal with digital assets after death. This is  a newer problem in estate planning, but one that cannot be underestimated and just how painful this  can be. So with that, here's my interview with Betsy. 

Jason Pereira: Betsy, thank you for taking the time. 

Betsy Ehrenberg: I am delighted to be here. And I always enjoy talking about how people can protect their assets, their  estate, and explaining what digital assets are because they're all over the place. And most people are  not even aware of it. So let's begin with the premise. Everyone has a digital footprint. People from 2 to  92 have information about them stored on computers, and that information is stored in digital form and  electronic records. And therefore is a digital asset. The digital footprint includes data and documents on  your phone, on your tablet, on your laptop and your desk computer, and many other computers that are  controlled by others. So who is controlling this and who has access to your digital footprint? The  answer? You. You should be in control [inaudible 00:01:54] over 200 companies on average have  information about each one of us. I consider this a big problem. 

Jason Pereira: So over 200, that's a lot. So people they hear digital assets that I think the bigger notion of the day is the  concept of cryptocurrencies, which really fall under that category, but this is so much more, this is my  photo's on Apple Photos. This is my Facebook profile. This is countless things. So first [inaudible  00:02:19] we established what that is, it's basically anything that information that you have online, that  someone can access and that you're entitled to, talk about what the implications for what happens if  this doesn't get sorted out? 

Betsy Ehrenberg: Well, first of all, I want to sort of expand the definition. Your digital footprint are electronic records that  are associated with an individual with you. So they include your email and financial accounts. They  include your government files, like voter registration and your passport. They include housing bills, your  electrical bill, maybe your mortgage payments. They include your insurance policy, my automobile, my  life insurance. And they include your medical records, shopping sites. And of course, social media. So the  implication of having those all out there means that someone can easily impersonate you and they do it  all the time. So if we just go into one situation that happens one out of eight deaths is the following. A  person passes away. An obituary appears in the newspaper, a fraudster reads it. They're especially interested in high net worth individuals. They then match that up to social media. They now can find a  lot more information about you, as well as pictures. 

Betsy Ehrenberg: Now they pay $20 and find your social security number. That's how easy it is to get a social security  number. 

Jason Pereira: $20. 

Betsy Ehrenberg: Yes. $20. 

Jason Pereira: That is frightening. 

Betsy Ehrenberg: They use the information they found from social media and from the obituary to impersonate you and  apply for credit cards. The banks are so anxious to have you and the credit reporting companies don't  know your debt. So a credit card is issued in the name of the decedent for the fraudster has control of it.  The fraudster buys and applies for and gets three or four credit cards. And as long as the money spent  on those credit cards is less than $8,000 a month, the bank does not go after the fraudster for three  months. So you can do the math and figure out how much can be purchased. It's huge. And that's just  one aspect of the kind of identity theft and other theft that happened when people are not aware of  their digital assets. 

Betsy Ehrenberg: Another kind of theft that happens, which can be resolved is that automatic payments keep coming out  of the bank account, the Netflix subscription, the newspaper subscription, maybe your donation to the  college you attended. You set it up that every month, $500 would go to that college. College doesn't  know. And before you know it, the bank accounts of the decedent are decreased by the clearing houses,  the automatic payments and the fiduciary suddenly has to unravel this. And that job is so new that  generally attorneys don't want to be bothered doing it. They don't know how to do it. Their paralegals  don't know how to do it and what 

Jason Pereira: [crosstalk 00:05:42] different process for everybody, right? Assuming they even have a process for how  you deal with the estate. Sorry to interject there. More recently, Apple created a process for authorizing  someone else to access things in case you are deceased, but that's one of the only technology  companies I know has actually created an actual platform for doing that. Isn't that about right? 

Betsy Ehrenberg: No, actually, Jason, two other companies have the ability for individuals, you and I, to actually designate  another user ID to access our account when we are disabled, unable to do so. One is Facebook where  they have a legacy contact whereby a Facebook user can say, if I am no longer able to use this account, I will designate this other person, this other email address. Google has the same thing. It's called inactive  manager. As a Google user, and as a Facebook user, I have to sort of work my way into their applications  to figure out where I actually put the email address and name of the person who can access my account. 

Jason Pereira: Sorry, that's part of what I'm [inaudible 00:06:52], but it's not part of the onboarding. In no point  [inaudible 00:06:55 being asked when I'm setting something up or in an annual approve of terms, hey, in  case he took the bucket, who do you want to unlock this to? There's no check. So if I got to go out and  seek it, that's nice. But at the same time, it really doesn't solve the problem if it doesn't nudge me to  actually get that done. 

Betsy Ehrenberg: No it doesn't. And I will tell you that a bigger problem is when a person has a cell phone, if it's an Apple  or a Samsung, there's a pin associated with getting onto that phone. And every person who has a phone,  you and I both have them, should be able to tell someone else, how do you get into my phone? And the  reason you want to do that is because many accounts have worse called multi-factor authentication. It's  not enough to just know the password. You have to have something. Multifactor means that you have to  know something and you have to have something. It doesn't mean two passwords because that's  knowing two things. So multifactor is important. But if the fiduciary can't open the phone, even though  they are given legal authority by a will or a trust, they will have great difficulty getting onto the accounts  of the decedent or a person who is disabled. This is a huge problem. 

Jason Pereira: I think about the human implications of some of this stuff. First off the fact that you're saying one in  eight are subject to some form of a fraud afterwards, that is insane. That's more than one in every 10  deceased cases. And I just think to myself of the estate basically having these claims suddenly arrive  about these overdue credit cards. And it's like what do you do? These aren't the credit cards. Now the  executors who's already got a ton of work to do is now up against that to prove that there wasn't them.  So that's nuts. 

Jason Pereira: But something as simple as Facebook, not being able to disconnect, your turn off your loved ones  accounts so that you don't have to be reminded that they're gone. Those things will pop up or their  names will come up or I've even seen cases where they get hacked and someone else's using that  person's identity. And you're already in a sensitive, painful position already to have to deal with that  kind of stuff. It's not anything anyone wants to deal with ever. 

Betsy Ehrenberg: Absolutely not. When people are grieving, they want to remember the decedent in positive terms. And  when they are faced with identity theft or loss of money or continue to get a message, wish Pat a happy  birthday, and she's been dead for two years and nobody went into the Facebook account and changed  the status to memorialized. And once a person goes into Facebook with the authority and indicates on  Facebook's account for Pat [inaudible 00:09:50] she passed, every time the somebody will look her up,  it'll say memorialized. So they will know, but it doesn't necessarily stop the wish Pat a happy birthday.  Now we've all gone through COVID over 700,000 people have died. Many of them were on LinkedIn. So  what does LinkedIn do? They say wish Pat a happy anniversary.

Jason Pereira: [inaudible 00:10:17] work anniversary. 

Betsy Ehrenberg: I'll tell you a story. One of our first stories was that a 55 year old woman had to deal with her mother's  estate. She was 83. She went to the house and she kept on getting mail, saying address to mom. This  was physical stuff. However, those 19 letters meant that 19 companies had mom's name on their rosters  and whether it was the museum or the symphony or the congregation, whether it was the IRS, nope. All  of these letters addressed to mom were very upsetting. Now, 18 of the 19 custodians agreed to remove  mom's name when our company asked them to do so. And the only one that wouldn't was AARP 

Jason Pereira: The company that probably has to deal with this problem the most said no. 

Betsy Ehrenberg: Well, they said no, because we did not specifically provide date of birth of mom. We provided the  obituary that had date of birth, but our electronic message to AARP didn't call it out. Then we changed  our procedures. So that with AARP we provide distinctly, this is date of death. This is date of birth. Then  they removed it. This was shocking. Now, if you talk about big organizations, let's talk about a major  bank and I'm not going to give its name, but 

Jason Pereira: [inaudible 00:11:53] logo is. Sorry. [inaudible 00:11:55] hint. 

Betsy Ehrenberg: They have 66% of the market. In the United States, 3 million people die. 66% is well over one and a half  million people die every year. This bank expects the fiduciary of those accounts of that estate to call  them up and speak to someone. This is nuts. This is absolutely nuts. And another big institution requires  a fiduciary to go into a branch office. But what if there isn't a branch office? That's a problem. [crosstalk  00:12:33] have that. 

Betsy Ehrenberg: So part of what we do as a company, what Legacy Concierges does is to advocate for the fiduciary.  When we first tried to transfer 500,000 reward points in Southwest from a decedent to the beneficiary,  customer service said, we don't have to do it. I got on the phone, I spoke to general counsel, I said by  law you do have to do it. The law was passed in 2016. This is the probate code. You must transfer those  assets to the beneficiary. And they did, but that's one airline. What about American and United? There's  a disconnect between customer service and the fiduciary and the family and a major part of what our  company does is advocate for the family. And when we have wins like we did with Apple, with Google,  and with Facebook, we're thrilled. It took for Facebook 15 months for them to release five years worth  of data of a decedent, deliver it on a flash drive to the family. 

Jason Pereira: 15 months. Wow.

Betsy Ehrenberg: Yeah. 14 of the months was talking to them. Once they agreed to do it, it was 10 days. 

Jason Pereira: That sounds more like it. But the thing is, is that add insult to injury. These are grieving people under  stress and a million things to do. And it's not like people don't die on a regular basis. That's what it  comes down to. It's not like people don't die on a regular basis and that this shouldn't be something that  they should work to streamline. And of course make sure the diligence is done to make sure that  someone is who they claim they are work to require proof of life if you can. It's not like that's not the  case, but my goodness, that is just crazy that they haven't spent the time to standardize those processes  of how you're going to do this just to deal with the everyday problem. 

Betsy Ehrenberg: And not only do they not have a procedure, they have a very expensive process right now where they  assign a person. Let's say Apple assigns a person who they're paying over a hundred thousand dollars a  year to talk to the fiduciary to physically look at documents. This is expensive, time consuming, poor use  of resources. And it's because of ongoing conversations that we had with Apple that they finally came  up with this idea that you could in fact designate another person. 

Jason Pereira: If anyone goes looking for that, I just want to looking for it myself. It's still not fully in the newest version  of iOS 15, although it's coming. So yeah, we'll blast that out over the internet once it actually does. But  yeah, that was a big win. So if you were helping lobby for that, thank you, because I actually remember  watching the keynote being this is big news in my world and I'm not hearing anyone talk about it. 

Betsy Ehrenberg: Well, it isn't available yet and we have been told it's fourth quarter. So officially it should show up. I  suspect it'll show up December 31st of this year, the last day of the quarter, but I'm happy if it shows up  by the middle of March next year. It will save a lot of time, a lot of money and save a lot of grief. And the  other thing that is kind of painful is when a phone has pictures of the decedent and their relatives and  the fiduciary can't get to them. People don't have paper records anymore. They don't have photographs  and frames. That's not the world we live in. So my advice is that as a person is approaching 70, let's say,  they are a member of AARP, they should start to create an inventory of what's important. First of all,  their phone, their cell phone, how do you get on it? 

Betsy Ehrenberg: They have another device, whether it's a laptop or desktop, how do you get on that? Then the next thing  is to talk about what email is the most important? What is the email that is being used to pay for Netflix  and subscriptions that is registered with the registrar, the voter registration? What email is the key  email associated with all the digital assets belonging to that 70 year old person. And then the 45 year old  child who will probably be burdened with this activity of sorting things out. They should become aware  of the importance of talking about the subject. It is not a gloomy subject. Hey mom and dad, you're  going to die someday rather, hey mom and dad, you have such a legacy to share and I want to make  sure it is shared the way you want. And I think the most important thing is your photos. What do you want to have happened to them? Who do you want to see them and have a discussion in a positive way  that planning for a digital legacy is a gift to the next generation. 

Jason Pereira: Yeah. It's amazing that this is not a bigger priority for companies. So best practices, you've talked about  that when as these digital solutions emerge, hopefully they're going to do a little bit better of a job of  nudging us to make sure we take advantage of them because otherwise they won't get implemented.  One of the things I use quite frequently is a password record keeper that I am able to share with my  spouse. And essentially, if anything goes wrong, she has access to that information. I think it actually  even has, not a proof of life, but it does have the ability to access it in case I do pass away. So there are  some features built into some products out there that are there, but otherwise, it's like anything else  with their estate, if you're not organized on where these things are, then you're in trouble. 

Betsy Ehrenberg: [inaudible 00:18:28] one thing a password manager helps you when you're alive access the accounts.  And in your case, you've said to your spouse, you can access my accounts with this password manager.  However, the spouse is not allowed by law to impersonate you. There's a very big difference between  accessing for the purpose of continuity and allowing processes to be transferred or closed down versus  impersonating. Impersonating is against the law, federal law and state law. So the fact that you have  planned ahead and given another person access to the accounts and the passwords is good, but they  have to understand the restrictions that they have to operate under and impersonating a decedent is  against the law. 

Jason Pereira: Very fair statement. So this is the problem. We've established it. Another example of an area where if  you don't get [inaudible 00:19:32] another example of a reason why you should always say no to being  an executor, but that said if you have to say yes, this is one of those areas everybody should definitely  be up to date on. Talk to me about what your service does to basically solve the problem for people. 

Betsy Ehrenberg: Our service is called Locket and we have four phases. The first is to identify the digital footprint of the  decedent. And we do that by populating a secure legacy vault, which we share with the fiduciary. So  identify is number one, we use proprietary software to be able to locate emails, financial accounts,  government records, health records, and housing information. We use the address, the last known  address of the individual to be able to create an inventory of electronic records that are associated with  that address and with that person. Shopping sites and social congregations, clubs, community service.  So we first is identify how big the electronic footprint is. Secondly, to prioritize it based upon our  algorithms as to what should be closed down first. If there are multiple emails, which email is associated  with most of the accounts? What is the downside of closing off or redirecting emails to another person? 

Betsy Ehrenberg: So we identify them, we organize, we review this with the fiduciary with our recommendations. We say,  you should really get rid of these things and close them down. We also use search features of the  standard search engines and show the fiduciary all the places that the decedent's name is popping up,  and we recommend that they be removed. And then we cause them to be removed because by law, if a  custodian is asked to remove something, they must do so. Interesting. Social security will be notified that a person has passed away. If the decedent was on Medicare, social security, the social security's  administration has been depositing money into a bank account. The minute they find out a person is  dead, that bank account is frozen. Now, if that bank account was being used to pay the mortgage on the  house that the successors are still living in, can you see the problem? 

Betsy Ehrenberg: So we are very, very careful in our identification process and notification process, not to upset the Apple  cart and to bring to the attention of the fiduciary the order in which things have to be stopped.  Canceling a credit card is not an answer. If that credit card is paying bills that are important for the  house to stay in good working condition so the value of the house doesn't go down because the security  system was closed and it was vandalized. 

Betsy Ehrenberg: You can see there's a whole chain of events that can happen. So another thing our company does is  ongoing research. The procedures for closing accounts with Chase change every 30 days, the procedures  for closing with Bank of America change on a regular basis. So for our efficiency, we remain up to date.  So we identify, review, we notify and then we secure assets and secure means that we actually gain  access to them, like the photographs on Facebook, what's on the phone, the old emails, we analyze and  we secure them. The other meaning of secure is that we caused them to be frozen. That's important.  We know that it's easy to stop a subscription like a Netflix. We also know it's not a good idea to stop the  gardening service. Do you see what can happen? 

Jason Pereira: Let's not go canceling everything. That's not the way you... Exactly. 

Betsy Ehrenberg: And so we're not grieving, the family is, and the fiduciary is overwhelmed. We do this all the time and  our software does it automatically using what we call a ticketing system. And the ticketing system is very  date dependent. Whatever the procedures are in January of 2022 may not be the procedures that will  be in place in July of 2022. And the minute we start a process of locking accounts, we have to use the  procedures and follow through with them as they were as of date of death, not as they are today. There  are so many little subtleties of what happens and why custodians don't want to be bothered. It's not  their business. 

Jason Pereira: Well, it's true. And again go back to your [inaudible 00:24:48] point, I'm sure they all have their own  internal processes. There's no one uniform way that these things are handled. These are administrative  tasks that have to fit whatever administrative framework everybody's developed in individually. So yes,  painful, difficult and I'm glad that at least you and your company's out there to help so that I don't have  to do it myself ever, because that would be an absolute nightmare, but yes, very valuable service. And  I'm glad you're actually doing a lot on the advocacy side. Can you speak as to what led you to do that? At  the end of the day, you're talking to these companies about these problems already. You're bringing  these issues to light. Are they the ones basically asking you how they fix it permanently? Are you  basically pushing them to fix it permanently? 

Betsy Ehrenberg: We are pushing the companies to fix a person permanently. We first of all convince them that this is a  problem for them, not for us. They are wasting time and money and they are being cruel. They cannot  have people in charge of this process. They must have what's called an API, an interface, so that  companies like Legacy Concierge can notify them through a piece of software and that piece of software  goes into their legacy applications and marks the file as frozen or deleted or transfers the assets from an  existing account to another. And then reports back to us that they actually did the work. We are  advocating that government, private industry, public companies have an electronic connection. It's from  a technical point of view, an app where we can electronically fill in fields, attach copies of documents  and transfer it to them. They have the ability using AI to read the documents, make sure they're right,  and actually take the action that we are requiring, freezing, transferring, deleting, or securing. 

Betsy Ehrenberg: And this is not a high priority, but in December, 2018, one of the Vanguard consultants realized that he  had access to accounts of deceased clients. He opened up his own account. He transferred the assets  from deceased client's accounts into a new account, Christmas 2018. This Vanguard employee bragged  to his brother that he had transferred over $2 million to his account and had taken it out. In January, the  brother reported him to the FBI. By March of 2019, he was in jail. And Vanguard, big company, fixed up  their procedures. It was in the paper. I suspect other investment companies have procedures in place  now. Maybe they were in place in 2018, but I'm pretty sure they're in place today. If this could happen  at Vanguard, which is huge, it could happen anywhere. With Facebook, if fraudsters are today  impersonating deceased people on a regular basis, it can happen. And stealing from the estate. It's  something that upsets me and our team. And that is why we are such advocates on behalf of the legal  community and the grieving community to make it easy and electronically efficient. 

Jason Pereira: Well, it's such a win-win for everyone involved. The grieving community benefits. You actually eliminate  complexity from your business and get to be able to offer this service more easily to people and the  companies themselves get to avoid this ridiculous headline risks that they face and resentment from  users of the deceased. The users of the deceased are all consumers and they're going to remember the  way that they were treated when they ran into that. 

Betsy Ehrenberg: And there's one other thing, because laws are in place that define the role of the fiduciary and  encourage attorneys to include the designation of a digital executor in wills and trusts, it's important for  the attorneys to discuss digital asset exposure with their clients. And if they don't and don't include any  conditions or provisions for a digital executor, the beneficiaries can sue the attorney for creating a  document that didn't conform to the legislation that was in place when the document was created. In  New York state, fiduciaries can be sued because they haven't notified the state police that a firearm that  was associated with a deceased person has been turned into the state within 15 days of the death. 

Jason Pereira: 15 days. 

Betsy Ehrenberg: 15 days.

Jason Pereira: They barely been in the ground for that long and you're going to get sued because you were too  emotionally damaged or emotionally hurt by their loss that you didn't get to even to starting to catalog  things. 

Betsy Ehrenberg: How do they find out there's a crime? A gun is found. It is registered to Pat Green. Pat Green died two  years ago. Why didn't the fiduciary take that gun, turn it into the police and cancel the registration? Why  were they irresponsible with that gun? That's the reason the law was put in place 2016. This is not new. I  don't know how the law was even passed. Why the NRA didn't stand up and say, you've got to be  kidding, but it was passed. 

Jason Pereira: Let's face it. The NRA probably did stand up and say, you got to be kidding, but it probably still passed  right? 

Betsy Ehrenberg: It did pass, bur what this means is that when a professional is discussing trusted estate administration,  trust and estate planning, if they are New York state, they should ask the question, by the way, do either  one of you own guns? Yes or no. Well, let's talk about what should happen upon death of one of you  one or the other, or both. There should be this discussion. But if there is a discussion, whoever is  appointed by the probate court to be the fiduciary of the estate can be held liable if they did not turn  the gun in and notify state police. Interesting. 

Jason Pereira: Well, the estate conversations are sometimes fascinating, sometimes a little depressing. This has been  informative and I hope everybody... And a little bit depressing, but not depressing in that at least we  know that there's... And this part of the reason to have you on the podcast was to inform the world that  services like yours exist because without having us cross paths, I wouldn't even know where to start on  this. So Betsy, thank you for the work you do and the advocacy you do. And for spending the time with  me today, to help people understand the challenges that basically happen with digital assets. And no,  we're not just talking about Bitcoin. It's its own challenge. If you don't have both the wallet ID and the  private key, so good luck to you on that one if you're not storing it properly. So, Betsy, before I go,  where can people find you? 

Betsy Ehrenberg: They can find us on our website www.legacy-concierge.com. 

Jason Pereira: Thank you. And thank you for joining us today for Financial Planning Team Business Owners. I hope you  enjoyed that and hope you learned a lot. And I hope you learned about just how difficult it can be to  settle an estate and given the digital realm we live in and how much data is out there. And it's a problem  that is probably only going to get bigger until it gets solved. As always, if you enjoyed this podcast,  please leave a review on Apple podcasts, Stitcher, SoundCloud, or wherever it is you get your podcasts.  Until next time, take care.

Producer: This podcast was brought to you by Woodgate Financial, an award-winning financial planning firm  catering to high net worth individuals, business owners, and their families. To learn more, go to  woodgate.com. You can subscribe to this podcast on Apple podcasts, Stitcher, Google Play, and Spotify,  or find more episodes at jasonpereira.ca. You can even ask Siri, Alexa or Google Home to subscribe for  you.