Defining Your Legacy with Christine Brunsden | E042

Defining your legacy statement.

In this episode of Financial Planning for Canadian Business Owners, Jason Pereira, award-winning financial planner, university lecturer, and writer, interviews Christine Brunsden from Trusted Legacy. Christine helps her clients plan out more than just their finances, but how they want to be remembered!

Episode Highlights:

  • 1:01 – Christine Brunsden introduces Trusted Legacy.

  • 3:15 – Why do people put off their legacy and estate planning?

  • 4:23 – Jason and Christine emphasize the importance of knowing what you are planning for.

  • 7:17 – How does Christine start the legacy conversation with her clients?

  • 10:00 – Christine shares her method for introducing philanthropic giving.

  • 13:10 – What comes next when a client decides that they don’t want the government to get their money?

  • 15:12 – What are Jason’s motivations for helping his clients?

  • 17:40 – Christine defines what she really does for her clients.

  • 19:44 – Jason discusses the ongoing pursuit of value for financial advisors.

  • 21:17 – Christine dives into the underutilization of programs such as Alter Ego and Joint Partner Trust in Ontario.

  • 25:27 – Jason and Christine discuss the benefits of setting a will for the beneficiaries.

  • 28:22 – Christine is a huge proponent of a Letter of Wishes.

3 Key Points

  1. A lack of education on legacy and estate planning plays a large part in why people put those processes off.

  2. Jason’s mission as a financial planner is to help his clients get to the best versions of their lives. Many in the industry are fixers in this way.

  3. In Ontario, there is an underutilization of programs that provide legacy security such as Alter Ego and Joint Partner Trust.

 

Tweetable Quotes:

  • “I always felt like there was something missing when I was in the banking world and I wanted to go deeper with people...there’s something more I could do.” – Christine Brunsden

  • “If you can actually articulate what your legacy mission statement is, you probably show up every day and live it more intentionally.” – Christine Brunsden

  • “I just define my career as about helping people live the fullest version of their lives. That is, to me, the purest version of financial planning.” – Jason Pereira

  • “I try to educate along the way as well so that I actually teach them the reasoning behind things so that they feel comfort.” – Christine Brunsden

  • “Be intentional about your planning...Make sure that it does fit your situation and that it is going to protect you and those that you care about.” – Christine Brunsden

Resources Mentioned:

Full Transcript:

Producer: Welcome to the Financial Planning for Canadian Business Owners Podcast. You will hear about industry  insights with award-winning financial planner and entrepreneur, Jason Pereira. Through the interviews  with different experts with their stories and advice, you will learn how you can navigate the challenges  of being an entrepreneur, plan for success, and make the most of your business and life. And now your  host, Jason Pereira. 

Jason Pereira: Today on the show I have Christine Brunsden of Trusted Legacy. Christine is a estate planning  professional, helps people organize their estate lives in multiple facets. And I brought her on the show to  talk about specifically, obviously, estate planning, but more so not about the technicals of the wills, but  everything else that goes into it. And with that, here's my interview with Christine. 

Jason Pereira: Christine, thanks taking the time today. 

Christine Brunsden: Thank you for having me, Jason. 

Jason Pereira: Pleasure. So Christine Brunsden of Trusted Legacy, tell us about what it is you do. 

Christine Brunsden: Sure. So when I left the banking world and went out on my own and incorporated Trusted Legacy, my  goal was to help people in planning, but planning in a different way. So I always felt like there was  something missing when I was in the banking world, and I wanted to go deeper with people. But  because I was so busy and obviously doing planning with so many, I didn't really have the ability to go  that deeper, extra mile with them. But there was always something yearning inside of me that said, you  know what, there's something more I can do. 

Christine Brunsden: They give me so much information. We have so many great talks and how do I actually help them get a  better plan instead of just doing the traditional will and estate plan, send them off to the lawyer, get the  documents, put the documents away and we're done? And so when I developed my own business, I  really delved into what did I want the process to look like? And the process was really around  uncovering what their legacy mission statement is, because I think if you can actually articulate what  your legacy mission statement is, you probably show up every day and live it more intentionally than if  you can't put any framework or conversation around it. So really understanding what drives you from a  legacy standpoint and what your strategy is. It's like if I said to you, hop in a boat right now, Jason, and I  want you to set a course for somewhere. And you'll say to me, what? 

Jason Pereira: Actually, the first thing that came to mind was the old Yogi Berra saying, if you don't know where you're  going, you'll end up somewhere else. But yes, my response would be, where am I going and why?

Christine Brunsden: Right. So the same thing is with your legacy plan, right? If you know what you want to achieve at the  end, you can shift around. When the weather gets stormy, you're going to shift and go around things.  And you're going to have always things that come up. But if at least you have an idea of what it is you want to have happen at the end of the day and what you want to achieve. You're probably going to get  there in a much more efficient way than just setting out and saying, okay, well I'm just going to sail until  I figure it out. 

Christine Brunsden: But again, I think legacy planning is one of those things that a lot of people will intentionally put off, not  want to talk about. And I think the reason for that is because of education. Again, we know that financial  literacy just came into the school network not that long ago. But there is no legacy literacy in school.  There's no estate literacy in school. And so people just don't know what they don't know. And again, I  bring it back to you. You can sit in there at your desk and you've got piles of work in front of you. Are  you going to gravitate to the pile that you know how to do? And you know how to do quite well, and  you can probably efficiently get through it. Are you going to gravitate to that pile that you really know  that there's stuff in that pile that you have no idea how to do? 

Christine Brunsden: And it's going to take some research and a little more work. You probably procrastinate on that pile then  and move to the ones that you know how to do. The same thing happens with legacy planning. And  there's not that many people out there that will sit down with you to really uncover and to help you  understand and learn the mechanics behind things, to give you a comfort zone to know that the decision  you're making is the right decision. Because for me, I look at it that way all the time. If I'm going to make  a decision to do something, I need to understand the underpinning. I need to know the why am I making  that decision? 

Jason Pereira: So we were talking before this started and we're going to come back to the legacy mission statement  and everything in a second. But when we were talking, I said, the thing about estate planning is it suffers  from the same problem as every other segment of the financial planning process, right? People confuse  the product that comes as an end result from the process with the actual planning itself. Financial plans  are basically a stack of paper, but really the financial planning process is the art of figuring all this stuff  out and going through that. It's necessary to get to the end result. If you just want to buy a cheap  financial plan, you just Google financial planning user software. You could probably find something that  does a five minute plan and calls it a plan, which is criminal. You have the same problem when people  get involved in investing, but they have no plan for that. 

Jason Pereira: They have no strategy about how that fits in the rest of their lives. Same thing with insurance and tax  planning. These things all get siloed, just like estate planning does. And we confuse the fact that we  come out of it with the financial plan, investment accounts, insurance policies, taxes filed, and a will and  power of attorney with the planning process. And that is not the same thing. It's the old saying about  the journey is more important than destination, right? And if we don't go through that journey properly,  it's the old, I'm about to Yogi Berra, you'll end up somewhere else that you didn't plan on. So what  you're saying, you're doing there is essentially you're setting the course, the destination before you even start. Most people start like, okay, so let's start with your will. Okay. So what do you own? What do you  owe? Blah, blah, blah. You're going like, wait a sec. What are we trying to accomplish here in your life,  right? 

Christine Brunsden: That's absolutely what it comes down to is you have to know, you have to understand what you're  planning for in order to make sure that the plan makes sense. You can always adjust it as time goes on.  The classic example is you get out of school and you probably don't actually do your first will until you've  maybe got a decent full-time job and maybe you get married and you start thinking about all your  mortality. Like if something happens, you better make sure that you leave everything to your wife or  then kids come into the mix. But I think people are sometimes afraid of going to get standard basic  information because they're unwilling to pay the fee to a lawyer to get that information. And sometimes  the lawyers don't necessarily, always want to sit down and educate you because they know that you're  never going to want to pay a bill for education. 

Jason Pereira: It's funny. It's the old, again, people go looking for the product, not the process. If you had to make them  pay for the other one, it would be more visible as to what our value really is. Okay, so that's the general  challenge. You get them to frame the problem they're facing in the right terms, which is, this is not  about getting you a document. This is about getting you a plan that's going to basically help you fulfill  what your legacy is going to be. So talk to me about how you start that conversation. What are the  questions you ask them? How do you get them to go from saying, I need a will to, oh, this is how I want  to live the rest of my life and my legacy to be after I'm gone? 

Christine Brunsden: Right. So it's a lot of self-reflection about what are the things in your life that you really enjoy? What are  the things that... This is always the one that tends to drive a conversation. It's around the fears, right?  What are the things that keep you up at night? What are the things you're most fearful of? What  happens if you can't make decisions anymore? What happens if you have a disabled child? The fear, the  pain points are always the ones that tend to drive a plan, not necessarily the pleasure points, but that's  usually the fear points. And that's where it starts, but it can quickly morph into pleasure points. 

Christine Brunsden: So there's information out there through the Canadian Association of Gift Planners and some [inaudible  00:08:03] studies and everything else. And I think you and I have discussed this in the past as well. That  says that if I were to go pull a hundred clients and ask them if their advisor, and I exclude you here,  because I know that this is something that you do address. 

Jason Pereira: I would need asterisks. 

Christine Brunsden: But there's some that don't. And I always ask these hundred clients, have you sat down and had a  philanthropic conversation with your advisor? About 10% of them are going to say they've had that  conversation. But if I went to advisors and I pulled a hundred advisors and asked them how many were having philanthropic conversations with their client, about 90% of them say, oh yeah, of course I do  that. 

Jason Pereira: Here's the thing, I've never met a survey I didn't hate. And I have to think that if you ask an advisor, did  you do this thing you're supposed to be doing? They're going to say yes. So I think that there is some  stacking on that. Like, did you put in place, did you do proper risk tolerance, assessment and put place  investment policies? Oh totally I did that. Totally I did that. Yeah, sure you did. Can you show me where  you've documented those conversations? And the answer is no, right? So I'm more prone to believe that  the number is somewhere in the middle. I'm sure the clients are forgetting. 

Christine Brunsden: I would say it's not that at all. I would say it's simply, there's a gap in what the advisor thinks is a  philanthropic conversation and what the client is thinking is a philanthropic conversation, because the  advisor probably thinks... And I'll tell you, I did this before. When I was very new in estate planning, I set  out that way too asking clients, do you give to charity every year? Oh yeah. So what's your giving  strategy? How much do you give, who do you give to, are you looking at leaving gifts in your will to any  particular charities? And that I felt at the time that that was a proper philanthropic conversation, but in  today's age, clients aren't thinking that's a philanthropic conversation. So I turned that on its head now,  and I don't even start at that point anymore. 

Christine Brunsden: I go directly to the financial plan that the advisor has pulled together for them. And we go to the very  back of the plan where it says estate planning. And I look down at the bottom of the page and I pull up  the tax number. And to drive the conversation, I always start it this way. Imagine that at the end of your  life, this amount now signifies the bag of money that your executor is going to pick up and drop off on  the doorstep of the government, upon your passing. Are you okay with that? Or would you rather pull  some or all of that back and deploy it to something that might be nearer and dearer to your heart than  CRA? 

Jason Pereira: Yep. We covered this previously with Mark Halpern, where he said, only three people are going to get  your money, your beneficiaries, CRA, or charity, and you've only got choice about two of those. So with  one comes at the expense of CRA. 

Christine Brunsden: Right. And so usually when they get over the shock of that number and then they can start to have a  conversation, you pull down some walls. And then you have to have the heart to heart conversations  about, I think it delves into your psyche. It's a self reflection thing. Asking questions like, what is the  thing you had when you were growing up that really propelled you and gave you that ability to achieve  success in your life? Or if there was one thing that you could have had growing up that you didn't, that  you think, man, if I had that, I probably could have done so much better? Maybe it's something around  that. Or maybe it's something from within your family. Family circumstances, you had a family member  who was disabled, or you had a mother or father who went through a particular life circumstance, or an  illness, or whatever.

Christine Brunsden: People get driven by different things. Some people are driven by animals. I can see you got your dog  there. So for some people it's all about how they feel about their pet. But if you're not going to ask those  questions, you're not going to uncover whether or not somebody has the propensity to wanting to give  to something else that might be meaningful to them. So I always bring it up that way and then work it  backwards. It's the whole thing. I think it's, if we had to come up with an equation, it's legacy equals,  and then we go through all the rest of the things. 

Jason Pereira: I agree. It's interesting too. I'm [inaudible 00:12:15] dimension. Now we haven't fully started doing this  yet, but there's a bunch of data aggregation plays we're looking to do. And what I actually want to start  looking at is where are they... They're going to give me their information as to where they're spending money. I'd like to know what charities they're actually giving to. We ask this, but if there's a serialized  giving to a charity of purpose, there's got to be a reason for that. And maybe the reason is something as  simple as my kid basically does a [inaudible 00:12:38] conquer cancer every year, right? 

Jason Pereira: Maybe there's no connection, but more often than not, I'd say that there's probably some form of  connection. We all go through life with some sort of hardship, some sort of negative event, some sort of  thing that we could have... Again, like you pointed out the contrast of what if you had had this versus  what if you hadn't?Those are usually impactful commentaries as to informing your decision. So someone  comes to the conclusion, they don't want CRA getting their share. They want it to go somewhere else.  What is the next step in that process? 

Christine Brunsden: The next step in the process is really figuring out what are the other responsibilities? So you now know  that you have some charitable intention. What are your other responsibilities with your estate? Do you  have children that you need to provide for, do you have a spouse you need to provide for? How does  that all play out together, and how do you pull it all apart and figure out what portions go, where, right?  And again, it speaks to that whole conversation about what's going on. Are your kids all set in life,  they've all fully launched? Or do you have one that hasn't launched and maybe never will launch. 

Christine Brunsden: You're both, you're getting older, is your spouse fully capable? Do you recognize that maybe they're  going to be going through some sort of capacity event? There's so many questions to ask. I think estate  planning conversation is all about your client sitting down and just spilling everything. And I often get  this comment that, oh coming to you is like sitting down and talking to a psychologist or a psychiatrist  because I feel like I'm opening my [inaudible 00:14:10] and you're going so far into rabbit holes. And I'm  giving out so much information that I never thought was even relevant to my financial plan or relevant  to anything. But it is all relevant because it all works its way. And it's all intricately woven together. 

Jason Pereira: Everything that matters to you is relevant to a financial planning process. The ongoing joke is that we're  all untrained, unpaid therapists. The reality is, is that especially if you have a deep relationship with a  client, you were there for the good, bad, ugly and everything in between. And oftentimes we can be the sounding board that helps. Some of the most deeply touching moments of my career have been when  people were suffering from things like depression. Saying that if not for my positivity at certain  moments, they felt like those were things that helped make them not to change it themselves, right? 

Christine Brunsden: Do you have a strategy from that, Jason? Do you actually... Do you wake up in the day and say I want to  purposely be positive? I want to compliment people. Is that something that's a purpose driven thing for  you? 

Jason Pereira: [inaudible 00:15:12] so thank you for that. So I would say that it doesn't come from that. I understand  the fields of positive psychology and everything else. I think I'm motivated in two ways by two separate  things. One, I just, I believe that the future is always optimistic and positive. There's always an infinite  possible in the future, right? I think that speaks to a lot of the stuff I do in terms of the technology side  of the industry. But I also say that change is possible. And I've gone through some deep, dark times in  my own life where you just suck it up, move forward, push forward. Eventually the bright days get  brighter. So having lived that, I understand that it's unfortunately, grit will get you through it. 

Jason Pereira: It sucks, but it will get you through it. And the last part is, I think, quite frankly, I just defined my career  as about helping people live the fullest version of their lives. That is, to me, the purest version of  financial planning is forget... Everything else is a mechanism, right? At the end of the day, people are  coming to us because I need help. They may be saying, I need someone to run my RSP. But what they're  really saying is I have retirement savings. I clearly intend to retire. I need help. And we get way too  caught up in the stuff, in the products and everything else. And the fullest version, and the most  absolute purest version of what it is we do, if we do the best version of ourselves, is to help enable the  best version of that person's life. 

Jason Pereira: And if someone comes to me in a bad position or something going on in their lives, or some sort of  family conflict or whatever it is, by defining my role as that, my role is as a change agent. It's to help  them get from there to the best version of their lives. So I'm an inherent fixer. People can't come to me  with problems. My wife complains about this all the time. She just wants to vent about problems in her  life and not have me offer solutions because I'm not listening. It's like, but this is what I do. I'm a born  fixer, right? And so that's the rant. So thank you for that interesting side note. I'm sure many people will  get a kick out of that. 

Christine Brunsden: I think that you and I, and maybe there's some sort of common element there for a lot of us who are in  this industry, but I think a lot of us have that same sort of mindset. That we are fixers, that we are that  counselor. And that's what drives us to be in the industry we're in. 

Jason Pereira: To be honest, if my job was defined as I'm here to sell a mutual fund, I would have been out of it a long  time ago, because frankly, that's of limited value in my mind. And never confuse the tools you're using  with the end purpose of what you're building. 

Christine Brunsden: Absolutely. And for me, when people ask me to describe what it is that I do, I always say it's about  helping you uncover and articulate that legacy mission statement. But also planning more efficiently,  organizing things, recording things, communicating better so that your legacy can be administered to  provide proper peace of mind in your lifetime, but also more favorable outcomes on your death and  beyond. And that's the way that I like to position it with people because time and time again, what  drives me in my role is the fact that I can have somebody come to me. And they probably haven't really  thought a whole lot about estate planning. And they may not have even uncovered what was keeping  them up at night. And when I ask them they can't articulate it either. We go through the planning  process. 

Christine Brunsden: And at the end of the day, when everything is complete, they look at me and they breathe this sigh of  relief and they go, holy cow. What peace of mind is that? Because now I know that it doesn't matter if I  lay my head on the pillow tonight or a week from now, or a month from now or years from now. The  fact that I've gone through this process, I know that the people that I am leaving behind or the charities  I'm leaving behind that I want to provide for and protect, they're all taken care of. And I don't need to  worry anymore. And it was huge peace of mind. And it's that burden being lift off your shoulders. They  all say that it's like a weight has been lifted off of me that I didn't even know it was carrying. 

Jason Pereira: Yeah. I think it's interesting because we have similar experiences, but different in that I might not get to  that on the first pass of the estate plan, but because I think a lot of the learning that comes from my  experience with clients is because the relationships tend to go so long, right? So they may not articulate  it, but over time they may learn to, or over time I may come to discover it, in which case we modify.  Whereas you're having a much more focused, concentrated, episodic, this is the period where we're  dealing with this and we're going to dig to the bottom of it, right? So I probably should listen to you. I  should probably do a little bit more hard digging, but we both get there in the end. 

Christine Brunsden: Well, and I think sometimes your client might go, well, Jason I've been coming to you for 10 years now,  and you've never asked me this question before. What's prompted you to ask me it? 

Jason Pereira: Yes. And you know, okay. So I'm glad you said... So that resonates with something so important. So one  of the things that the God of financial planning in the US [inaudible 00:19:52] I get to call him that  because honestly, no one else comes close. He talks about one of the struggles in this industry and  something that's becoming hyper commoditized and automated by things like robo advisors, is the  ongoing pursuit of value, of value add. Where is it that we justify... Where is it that advisors who wants  justified their fees for just access to investments basically justify their fees for something else? How do  they do that? Because if not, they could get their margins crushed and they could be out of the business. And it's funny because conversations like this and suddenly asking those new questions and expanding  the scope of what you're doing for people that do actually lead to that expansion of value. 

Jason Pereira: And even in periods of time where we took over practices in the past where we didn't get into the  weeds like this, where clients would go through this and be like, wow. We've been applying to this firm  for 20 years and we've never gone through this. And we're just so glad that you're expanding the  offering. Sometimes people will be worried that the client will turn around and say, why didn't you do  this before? Why wasn't it done? As opposed to just being grateful that they came to you for an  expectation you met. You can now exceed it and you can exceed it in a meaningful deep way. 

Christine Brunsden: Yep. And there's a few things when it comes to legacy planning that I have probably that are nearer and  dearer to my heart then some of the other people out there that are in the role. But I do believe that in  Ontario, which is where I'm practicing currently, that we do not utilize alter ego and joint partner trust  nearly enough. They protect people far better in some circumstances. They're great tools. Your process of minimizing probate, acting as a power of attorney substitute, but protecting there could be protector  trustees brought in to oversee things to make sure the person is being looked after. There's a lot of folks  out there too, who they're in a relationship and they know that their spouse's maybe going to struggle if  something happens to them first and, and having these things set up so that we don't have to go through a full on state administration at the end of the day. 

Christine Brunsden: I would say probably the people I'm doing this planning with more are the people that are 80 plus. And  they know they're headed towards some sort of capacity event because let's face it, dementia and  capacity is not one of those things. Usually you turn the light off one day and it's gone. Usually a switch  there. And people do recognize that they're starting to head down a path. They're fearful, but it's  something that they do recognize a little bit. And then you just have to get them to open up a little bit  about it. But there are ways of planning around these things. 

Christine Brunsden: I would say I tend to run, and I'm probably minority on this, but I tend to run what's called a cost benefit  analysis for people. So give me what your state plan is today. Well, let me run all the associated costs  involved with that plan and what it's doing for you. And let me see if we can actually turn it around a  little bit and make it more efficient. And then let me run the cost benefit analysis at that stage to see if  maybe an alter ego trust or a joint partner trust is right for you. And I'm always astounded when I put  the information in front of the client and I'm saving them 50, a hundred, 200, 300,000. I did this for a  gentleman recently who was 84 and we saved 316,000 by utilizing a trust just... 

Jason Pereira: Is that just in Probate? 

Christine Brunsden: It was probate and executor fees because he knew the son was going to engage an executor. Plus we've  got all the delays. It's not just the monetary piece of this. If you look at how long probate takes these days, that's a big conundrum itself. Plus going through these gate administration processes is not  comfortable. It's not our first nature for a lot of people. 

Jason Pereira: Well, not only that, it's complex and convoluted and there's a lot of work to be done. And a simple  example is there's software platforms that are launching in this country that I'll be interviewing on my  other podcasts that basically are there just to help get you through this the first time. Unfortunately, this  happens all the time too. Is that someone pass away. We'll say, listen, we don't administer estates, but  here we can refer you to companies that do, we can also provide you with some of the companies that  are really great at just even completing the basic forms and whatnot. Everything from the most simple  administration to the most complex and more often than not people are just like, no, no, I'm just going  to do it myself. And it's like, you have no idea what you're in for. The pedantic nature of this task and the  fruitless. 

Jason Pereira: First off, I will say this much. Unfortunately the banks do charge a fortune for this. I never use a bank for  anything. That's just my general opinion, but I won't go from there. But there are other trust companies  that are more affordable and higher service that are definitely, they can handle complexity of their  cases. But the reality is is that the average person doing something like this, even for a simple one, we're  talking years. We're talking the clearance certificates now... And not only that, you're liable as the  executor, for a period of time. So a lot of guidance is like, don't finish up the estate for three years. It's  like, who wants to live through that? And if we can avoid all that... Of course the deceased have to be  over 65, but of course this could be the majority of deceased. 

Jason Pereira: If we can avoid all that through the use of these trusts, which I agree, they are underutilized. Absolutely  underutilized because people come to you for estate planning, the first thing they associate is wills and  powers of attorney. 

Christine Brunsden: [inaudible 00:25:05]. 

Jason Pereira: Exactly. I will say they're a little bit underutilized in my practice as well. And largely it's because of... I  won't blame the clients on this, but sometimes there's a level of, they need to accept the fact we're  doing something else, right? Because then they're like, what do you mean I'm not going to have a will?  What do you mean I don't need a will? And sometimes they're like, well oh, so then I got to administer  this trust and this complexity to it. It's really not that much administration when it comes down to it. 

Christine Brunsden: Yep. And you're always going to need the will and power of attorney there anyway because there's still  rules that have to be fulfilled by those persons. 

Jason Pereira: Oh the pain in the ass is the will.

Christine Brunsden: With regard to, yeah. With regard to the main administration piece of it, it just makes things so much  easier. I can give you an example of that. We utilize a structure like this for an elderly couple where dad  was not capable and mum was capable. And we put the trust in place. The trust was in place in April and  dad passed away in July and mum passed away in September. First weekend in September. And if that  was a normal estate, you would have sat there and you would have collected all the values for the assets  and then probably at the position where you could have actually approached a lawyer and applied for  probate by maybe November would be pretty much traditional. 

Christine Brunsden: Well, because this was a trust like that, and all we had to do at the end of the day when both were gone  was to then figure out, well, what is our tax holdback amount? Because that's all we really need to know  is we're not holding enough money to pay the taxes back. And we had the majority of the money out to the beneficiaries before Joe down the street whose executoring his parents estate would've even  applied for probate. We had it all out by the beginning of November. So in two months we had majority  of the assets in the hands of the beneficiary. 

Jason Pereira: And that's a big misconception. People just don't, especially the beneficiaries, they really just don't  understand how long this is going to take. Like, okay, mom and dad are passed away now and okay, let's  actually get settled. And okay. So when does this get taken care of? And you tell the that, well, I don't  know, and this is going to be a long time. And then they wonder what the holdup is. 

Christine Brunsden: Well, and I get that too. I get the knock on the door. Usually somebody who's been referred and they  basically bring mum or dad's life over in a huge oversized Rubbermaid bin, and drop it off and say, here,  I don't know how to do any of it. Can you do it for me? So I will do that. I will help people and I will be  agents, and walk them through the process. But I try to educate along the way as well, so that I actually  teach them the reasoning behind things so that they feel comfort. And I do it in the comfort of their own  home as well, which is oftentimes something that they really want to do. So I had another client come to  me today on that because she's doing this for her aunt. It's not something she's really comfortable with. 

Christine Brunsden: And trying to gather up all your stuff and take it into the lawyers office was just not something that she  really wanted to do. I think the other thing with estate planning too. So there's that. There's people not  thinking about the other alternatives because it's just not talked about, and it's not really first nature for  a lot of us, but I think the other part is that the recording and communication around your plan. I've  developed a 100 page organizer, not to say that all 100 pages are applicable to everybody, but I've  literally designed it to be anything and everything in there. And one of the things that I tend to talk a lot  about with people, because if they're leaving behind trusts, particularly trusts for children, how do you  give the person who's going to be managing that trust a little more flavor, a little more meat towards  their decision-making? 

Christine Brunsden: And so I'm a huge proponent of letters of wishes. I think they're not used nearly enough. And people  always say, well, what is a letter of wishes? And I always say to them, listen, the way I think about the  letter of wishes is this. It's going to be your red light, yellow light, green light letter. So what are all the  things that you absolutely do not want to see your money being spent for with your kids? Or what  would just turn you over your grave? And then what are the things you want to exercise a little more  caution around? And especially knowing that child, you could make that letter very specific to each of  your children, because you might have children that could sell ice to Eskimos. Then you have other ones  that you know are very responsible, right? And then what are the green light items? What are those  things where hands down, no matter what. If it's a disability or whatever, anything that is really top of  my education for some people. 

Christine Brunsden: So if those things come up, you say hands down, just go ahead. I want you to pay that item. But giving  that flavor, putting that into a letter and changing it over time. As kids get older, they do maybe become  more responsible and they have more responsibility. And they take their decision-making a little more to  heart and whatnot. Or maybe they're never going to get there. People ask me the question all the time.  When you have a gift over clause in a will that says, hey, listen, if there's a trust in place and it's going to  be given over to somebody on that person's death, and it's going to say my grandchildren. So what age  is the right age? And I say, well, you tell me what the age is? 

Christine Brunsden: I can't tell you what the age is. You have to tell me. They say, well, how do I even think about that? So I  always say, I have all these little things that I've picked up over time. That I try to use and bring them the  conversations just to try and frame it better. One of the things I always say to people is, answer this  question for me. If I haven't got good money management skills by X age... 

Jason Pereira: Am I ever going to have them? 

Christine Brunsden: I'm never going to get there. And whatever you filled that blank in, whatever that number was, that's  the number you should use. 

Jason Pereira: Great. So before we wrap up any last words of wisdom, before we move on? 

Christine Brunsden: I think just be intentional about your planning. Don't just think about it as, like we said, don't think about  it as going and getting a will and a power of attorney. Be really intentional about it and make sure that it  does fit your situation. And that it is going to protect you and those that you care about and fulfill all of  the goals that you have for yourself as time goes on. Really be intentional about it. You'll get a lot more  out of the process if you actually do a lot of that self reflection and goal setting for yourself. 

Jason Pereira: Yep. And I will repeat again, do not confuse the process with the result. The result is the documents. The  process is what gets you there to the meaningful version. Christine, I thank you for this. Thanks for  taking the time. 

Christine Brunsden: Been my pleasure. 

Jason Pereira: So that was this week's episode of Financial Planning for Canadian Business Owners and the final  episode. And it was a four-part series on legacy planning. So I hope you enjoyed that. And as always, if  you enjoyed this podcast, please review on iTunes, Stitcher, or your [inaudible 00:31:17] podcasts. Until  next time, take care. 

Producer: This podcast was brought to you by Woodgate Financial, an award-winning financial planning firm,  catering to high net worth individuals, business owners, and their families. To learn more, go to  woodgate.com. You can subscribe to this podcast on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, Google play, and Spotify,  or find more episodes @jasonpereira.ca. You can even ask Siri, Alexa or Google Home to subscribe for  you.

FPCBOJason PereiraLegacy, Financial Planning