Global Financial Planning with Ashley Murphy | E049

The challenge of planning across borders.

In this episode of Financial Planning for Canadian Business Owners, Jason Pereira, award-winning financial planner, university lecturer, and writer, interviews Ashley Murphy, Founder of the Global Financial Planning Institute. Ashley is here to talk about the challenges of financial planning across borders!

Episode Highlights:

  • 1:15 – Ashley Murphy introduces himself and the GFPI.

  • 2:26 – How did Ashley get into this space?

  • 7:04 – Jason and Ashley break down the concept of working with 2 different playbooks in international financial planning.

  • 11:22 – Jason discusses the US’s citizen-based tax regulations.

  • 12:44 – Where are the biggest areas that international citizens feel the most agony?

  • 15:30 – Jason and Ashley contemplate the probability of global tax regulation.

  • 17:50 – Ashley explains the low propensity for the average citizen to do their own financial planning.

  • 21:40 – Jason and Ashley discuss how lax the financial planning community is about cross–border financial planning.

  • 25:07 – What is Ashley’s advice for anyone researching multi-jurisdictional financial planning advice?

3 Key Points

  1. As a tri–citizen, born in Australia and raised in the UK by an American mother before moving to the US, Ashley understands more than most the difficulties of international financial planning.

  2. When US citizens are dealing with cross–border issues, regulations and laws are interpreted differently in other countries which forces them to operate under 2 playbooks.

  3. Unlike almost every other country in the world, the US taxes people based on citizenship rather than residency. So, even if you move to another country, you have to file with the IRS.

 

Tweetable Quotes:

  • “This is not merely some small belt-mounted toolkit of practices or issues that one can simply apply when dealing with an international cross–border plan. It’s a whole different specialty altogether.” – Ashley Murphy

  • “When you’re dealing with cross–border issues, especially when you’re a US citizen, you’re dealing with 2 different playbooks.” – Jason Pereira

  • “As advisors, all we can do is recommend that our clients fully follow the law...then we come up against a culture of ignorance, naivety, and non–compliance.” – Ashley Murphy

  • “The problem is the advisors have an economic incentive to work with whoever they can and fluff their way through it.” – Ashley Murphy

 

Resources Mentioned:

Transcript:

Producer: Welcome to the Financial Planning for Canadian Business Owners podcast. You will hear about industry  insights with award-winning financial planner and entrepreneur, Jason Pereira. Through the interviews  with different experts, with their stories and advice. You will learn how you can navigate the challenges of being an entrepreneur plan for success and make the most of your business and life. And now your  host, Jason Pereira. 

Jason Pereira: Welcome. Today on the show, I have Ashley Murphy, Founder of the Global Financial Planning Institute.  Ashley is a well-known cross-border planner specializing in U.S. - Australian cross-border, but has also  expanded more recently into helping educate advisors and people about the challenges of planning  across borders. And with that here's my interview with Ashley. 

Jason Pereira: Ashley, thanks for taking the time today. 

Ashley Murphy: Absolutely. It's a privilege to be here. Thank you, Jason. 

Jason Pereira: Yeah, so we have quite the contrast going on right now because you are in surfers paradise with just  basically the most beautiful weather imaginable. And I am in the middle of a Toronto snow storm, which  for those of you listening in the States, it does not happen every day. It's not always snowing, so let's  move on. So Ashley, tell us about a little bit of what it is you do. 

Ashley Murphy: Absolutely. So really two things here, but let me focus on the Global Financial Planning Institute. So I am  the founder of the Global Financial Planning Institute. 

Ashley Murphy: It's an organization founded to provide community education, resources, and ongoing support for  financial advisors and other financial professionals working cross-borders. I'm also an advisor, have been  for decades. A little over a decade actually, where I work with Australian American expats. So Aussies in  the U.S. And Americans in Australia. 

Jason Pereira: Excellent. So you've been, I mean you've carved yourself out a niche years ago. We know each other for  a couple of years now. You were on the XYPN Radio podcast talking about that niche in particular, I'll try  to link to that. So anyone who wants to learn more about your practice can learn there, but in particular,  I brought you on the show to talk about the challenges of basically handling, planning across borders. 

Jason Pereira: And this is something that I don't think the average person has any idea of just how convoluted it can  get. They seem like I say, I almost get frustrated when when I see people treat borders as if they're just  imaginary lines. 

Jason Pereira: There's massive repercussions. So talk to me a little bit about why you got into this space and how you  help people in that scenario. 

Ashley Murphy: Okay. Absolutely. I first feel pumped up to respond to what you said there, and that is, I think you and I,  Jason, have a strong feeling and mission towards educating the advisory community that this is not  merely some, some small belt mounted toolkit of practices or issues that one can simply imply when  dealing with an international cross-border to client. It's a whole different specialty altogether. 

Ashley Murphy: And so you and I know Dan. We both keep a close ear to the grounds for articles that we see out there.  And I was drawn to one article just earlier this week in wealthmanagement.com. And it was talking  about, here are the things you need to know about international and cross-border planning and it dealt  with two issues. 

Ashley Murphy: I mean, two very superficial issues. And it just reminds me that there's rarely even the airspace, the air  time given to thinking about these issues and what it all might encompass. But anyway, that all being  said. How did I get into this? Really? This situation was, I was born into it to be honest. So I'm a Tri  Citizen. I was born in the UK, raised in Australia to an American mother and so I moved to the U.S. in  2005. [crosstalk 00:03:35]. 

Jason Pereira: We're going to complicate your life from birth. Okay. 

Ashley Murphy: That's how it happened. So these issues have always been with me when I moved to the U.S. I just  figured that I'm something of one of kind. You know, there's thousands, perhaps maybe tens of  thousands, hundreds of thousands with, with triple citizenship. But certainly tens of millions or even  hundreds of millions, perhaps with dual citizenship. 

Ashley Murphy: So this is a pretty common issue. It's updated research on them to see that there are in fact tens of  millions of such individuals in the U.S. So it really is incredibly common. So 2005 moved to the U.S. And  thought, well, gosh, there's got to be books, resources. There's got to be some way to go to find out  about the issues that pertain to these individuals. Then wasn't, there was nothing I could find. 

Ashley Murphy: I didn't have anything like the resources at my disposal then as I do now, but I think you might've been  in the room. I actually remember the very first meeting, Denver, FPA, 2010. [crosstalk 00:04:36].

Jason Pereira: I wasn't there for that one. I apologize after that. 

Ashley Murphy: So I remember feeling this is, this is my crowd. Like this is my crowd. There were folks from, from all  over the world there, and they we're dealing with, purportedly dealing with international cross-border  issues. And I really had my tail between my legs. I was mindful. I was the least experienced person in the  room. 

Ashley Murphy: You know, I've been in the business by that point for all of six months, still studying towards my CFP. So I  was an earnest student and trying to figure out what these people knew. But after I would say five years  participating in this knowledge circle, I realized, and actually having been told that there were organized  programs that they, the FPSP had instituted for cross-border certification and or initiatives that other planners had underway. 

Ashley Murphy: Eventually enough time went by where I figured these programs and not occurring. I did my own  research and found out that the mentor of mine who was well-placed to know such things who had  spoken about these FPSP initiatives, was in fact incorrect. And so it's something that, that led to. It took  a tremendously long time to prove that there wasn't anything there. 

Ashley Murphy: My father-in-law has a great example. He was a cancer doctor and he gave this example of when they  give test results back, they can say, we found no evidence of cancer. That's very different from saying  there is no cancer. [crosstalk 00:06:00] 

Jason Pereira: No cancer. 

Ashley Murphy: And that's the situation I've found myself in. Someone has said, there are resources out there. To prove  that statement wrong. You've got to look under every rock, turn over every stone, look in every cave, go  everywhere to show that, that is in fact incorrect. And I think I've done it. And it was that. I probably  came to that realization, I would say three or four years ago. 

Ashley Murphy: And it was at that point where I said, I get it. There are structural forces preventing an initiative from  getting off the ground to provide this kind of education. And I'm very pleased to say that's now... Some  of those issues have been resolved. So we have support from the FPA and also from that very mentor  that made that comment about the FPSP and the initiatives that they had in place. He's actually now a  member of the Financial Planning Institute himself. So it's been interesting. There's been a political sea  change and it's been reassuring. Excellent. 

Jason Pereira: So basically what you're doing is you're spending your time now split between your normal day job,  which is being a financial planner and educating planners on these issues. So let's focus in on these  issues and how they come about. I mean, I like to describe it and I'll start off and you can, you can edit as  late as you'd like, but I always say that when you're dealing with cross-border issues. 

Jason Pereira: Especially when someone's a U.S. Citizen. You're dealing with two different playbooks and one of them  is written in one language and another one's written in another language and there's this little  translation piece called the cross-border treaty. That doesn't actually address that much. And you're left  looking at. 

Jason Pereira: Hey, this works here, but then you've got to verify, has it been addressed? And if not, does it work on  the other playbook? And you, I don't have to tell you about the convoluted nature of us tax code. But  this can be a challenge. So, I mean, that's how I sum it up is that you're, you're playing by two different  rule books. And unfortunately what works here, doesn't necessarily work for the other one. 

Ashley Murphy: Yeah, that's exactly it. And another dimension to add to that is enforcing it. So the U.S. Has the most  complicated tax code in the world. We all know that and that's probably based on it where it's not  entirely based on it being a rules-based system. As opposed to in Australia and the UK, perhaps Canada  is similar in that regard. I don't know, but in Australia it's a principle based system. 

Ashley Murphy: So I've got an example in fond of giving where, a high net worth client who had some stock options  moved back to Australia. Lo and behold, there was some law I've never heard of it before called TOFA.  That was to do with tax and gains on foreign exchange, held in bank accounts. And with my U.S. centric  view of looking at tax, I said, Hey, we don't have to worry about it. We're holding this an investment  account. It's not a bank account. And that would be the right interpretation in the U.S. It's right there in  the law. It says this affects bank accounts. 

Ashley Murphy: Now, when I engaged with council in Australia, they said, no, no, no, no. They said it might say bank  accounts, but what that really means is any other account where you're holding these funds in a  catchment. So to go back to your analogy, yes, absolutely. That's exactly an accurate characterization.  It's as if it's written in two different languages and we've got to borrow from the Hitchhiker's Guide to  the Galaxy. 

Ashley Murphy: We've got that translating one that operates between these two languages, Babel Fish [crosstalk  00:09:08]. 

Jason Pereira: Babel Fish. Yep.

Ashley Murphy: But the Babel Fish is only capable of interpreting half of what actually comes through and so it's a very  unusual situation where, and of course my expertise is really pertains just about Australia - U.S. context,  where you can literally shop for the opinion that you want. Outside of those very few areas, where there  is a settled and agreed upon interpretation, you can actually shop for the opinion that you want. 

Ashley Murphy: And of course, it's really dependent upon the risk tolerance of the advisor and the client as to what they  want to do. But outside of that, outside of subtle law, that's the Wild West. That's the situation we  operate in and it's that context that adds another element to the mission that the GFP Institute has. 

Ashley Murphy: And that is to see things settled because obviously tax tradings, weren't written in such a way for the  users of the trading to get superior outcomes, to what domestic residents in either country would get.  And yet there are some circumstances where you see, again, of course, it's always going to be Aussies  that are referred to. But Aussies that are able to get out of the U.S. and pay no taxes, or very, very little  taxes on their retirement savings in a completely legitimate manner because of how the tax treaty  works and how the Australian taxes work. 

Ashley Murphy: You know when they deem Australian tax residency to resume and they give a step up in basis for the  position of the date of the tax residency regime. So that's another, another goal is to see harmony and  standardization and equity introduced globally. So that markets function tax systems function for  everyone. 

Jason Pereira: Boy, I mean it's another really frustrating Avenue sometimes. I mean, it's a great little niche for advisors  to cut out because frankly, the level of complexity is such that it takes a lot of investment in time to  actually get good at this stuff. But at the same time, it is fraught with peril, for those who, who tread  who don't tread carefully. 

Jason Pereira: So with that, I kind of want to, you know, let's take this back to just general advice. Where are the  biggest areas that people trip up in your mind? Like, what are the big kind of common screw ups that  people who live across borders or travel. Or just basically move across borders that they commonly end  up seeing the most agony? 

Ashley Murphy: That's a fantastic question because it actually goes back to the initial question and the point that I made  about enforcement. So the most common issue I would say would be to do with tax reporting. So FBAR  and FACTA and that kind of thing. 

Jason Pereira: Sorry, just to stop you there. Just so anyone's listening to this are not aware of this, just to be a hundred  percent clear. The U.S., unlike every other country in the world, with the exception of Eritrea, I believe. Tax is based on citizenship, not residency. Which means if you leave Canada or Australia, you file an exit  return I take it, in Australia. And then you're done. And unless have assets that remain in Australia or  Canada, you don't have to file with that tax authority anymore. In the U.S. it doesn't matter if you live on  Mars, you're filing with the IRS. 

Ashley Murphy: That's right. That doesn't necessarily mean you're going to be assessed U.S. tax. And in fact, rarely in the  countries that we look at and the GFP Institute. Does that actually happen? Unless it's us sourced  income, which would a different topic, but it is an issue. And so there is first, you have to be assessed  and you have to report. So there's informational reporting on accounts held abroad. And then there's  also just filing that U.S. tax return so that the U.S. can be sure that they are in fact pursuing their fair  share. Well, "Fair". It should really be in quotes, right? Given, given what we've just said Jason. 

Jason Pereira: So no one likes paying money to a government that they're not actually getting any benefit from this  necessarily. So it's never pleasant. 

Ashley Murphy: So the issues that trip people up are the tax reporting. As I was just mentioning, another one would be  what's called PFICs. Passive Foreign Investment Companies. So that is a very protectionist measure that  the U.S. has introduced the 1986 Tax Reform Act. Where essentially it's a U.S. Person. And I use that  term to refer to U.S. taxpayers. So that could be a citizen, a permanent resident, or even a tax resident  of the U.S. So someone there and visa. 

Ashley Murphy: If they own an investment vehicle overseas that is deemed to be a PFIC the Passive Foreign Investment  Corporation. And there's a couple tests that apply to that. But basically any foreign mutual or managed  fund or ETF, a REIT. Then it's going to be taxed at a very high and punitive. And so we see a lot of, folks  unwittingly stepping into that. But it goes back to what I said before, and that is to do with enforcement. 

Ashley Murphy: So while these are absolutely on the books and applied to individuals. The fact that the sheriff has kind  of a stupid switch, changes things. You know, I like to use the analogy of anyone who's been to Northern  California to say. The U.S. is the enforcement is a lot like enforcement of the speed limits on Highway  101. Where if you're doing the speed of traffic, you're suspicious because no one's doing the speed of  traffic everyone's driving 10 miles over the limit. 

Ashley Murphy: But the question remains. Could you be booked if you're driving 10 miles over the limit? You're driving  the speed of traffic. And the answer is absolutely yes you can. It's just, you're going to be really unlucky  if that happens. However, as advisors, all we can do is recommend that our clients fully follow the law. And that's of course what we recommend. Then we come up against a culture of ignorance, naivety, and  non-compliance. where people say, well, I've never heard of that before. You know, none of my friends  do this. So what are you talking about? [crosstalk 00:14:34]

Jason Pereira: Oh God! I get that all the time. Sorry. In particular, I will say this. Having to deal with being in Portuguese  descent and to having many, several, quite a handful of clients who old school guys who basically go and  go back every year for like six months. Which already their off side on residency. None of my friends are reporting this well, I care what your friends are like, like if your child said that to you, would you  basically take that as an excuse? Like it's not going to happen. 

Ashley Murphy: That's what I mean when, doing the speed of traffic. Like, Hey, why are you, why did you pull me over  officer? I was doing what everyone else is doing. It doesn't make it legal. [crosstalk 00:15:08] 

Jason Pereira: Yep, exactly. And it's interesting too. So the police may be a little bit asleep, but I have, I have a different  viewpoint on this to some degree in that. That's for now. Right? Because I mean, if you look at... I was at  a Society of Trust and Estate Planners Conference, a couple of years back where someone posed the  question of, do you think we're heading to a global enforcement regime for taxation? 

Jason Pereira: And surprisingly like in a room of like 800 people, I was one of like 10 hands that went up and I'm like,  are you guys not paying attention? And he basically made the case for what would be required in terms  of information sharing. In terms of me. It's all slowly happening. The only thing that's not happening at  this point is when one jurisdiction collecting another jurisdictions tax revenue on their behalf. 

Jason Pereira: So there's that. And then the other points I've heard made is that the U.S. with all this stuff that they put  together, like they don't even have time to go through all their FBAR forms. Like they just warehouse  them at this point. And I've heard of stories of entire warehouses full of paperwork. And my response is  that's, that's nice. Why do you think they're holding onto it? Because in my opinion, it's a matter of time  before they throw an artificial intelligence algorithm at it and pop up all the violators. 

Ashley Murphy: Yeah. And that's the best answer that we... We had a fantastic guest speaker last year for our master  class program who was a tax attorney at Withers. A venerated global tax law firm amongst other  specialties. And that was the answer that she gave. She said, yes, the IRS has been defunded over a  period of many years. Yes, there are fewer audits, but she said, it doesn't need to be as many audits.  These non-compliance notices can be sent automatically and the IRS is investing very heavily in artificial  intelligence and they know the suspicious transactions that they want to flag. 

Jason Pereira: And [crosstalk 00:16:41] there's a lot of computer people working in farming over the last a hundred  years too. I mean, it doesn't mean that just because they're funded less and there's fewer people,  doesn't mean that they can't automate the heck out of that. And you know what I guarantee you,  there's some Silicon Valley companies figuring out how to apply that technology to the tax reporting. 

Ashley Murphy: Absolutely and the IRS would be willing to pay hand over fist for it because they run a business as much  as they're hoping that their, their revenue exceeds their expenses. And if ever there was an investment  that they could make, that has to be it. Hey, we'll spend a hundred million dollars on some AI software  and we'll get billions of dollars in penalties that we're owed, as per the law. 

Jason Pereira: Well, it's interesting because one of the things that precipitated my need to learn more about cross  border was when the U.S. actually started to crack down on, I think it was probably, it was around  probably 2008. When it started to crack down on non-resident Americans and they increased the  reporting through FACTA and everything else. And so I very quickly had to educate myself because we  discovered that more than 20% of the client base had us tax exposure. So, I looked at the gut involved in  all that and quickly discovered just, Oh my God! There's so much non-compliance out there and most  people have no idea what is going on. It is a time bomb for a lot of these people, quite honestly. 

Ashley Murphy: Absolutely. Well, you know, that's the thing, Jason. I go back to brain function and evolution. When I  think about the propensity of the average individual to engage in planning, I mean, it's a higher order  function that the humans have you think of the future and think about what's coming. 

Ashley Murphy: And the fact is that most people just simply don't. I mean, they just don't. I don't know what percentage  would be. Let's call it 80% of the population just don't engage in planning in the first place. So that's a  problem. That's saying that our addressable market is immediately reduced by a significant amount. But  then secondly, the pain has to be significant enough for someone to pick up the phone or write an email  and make inquiries and in the first place. And so I'm actually addressing your former point in a different  manner. So where do we get a lot of inquiries from where do they originate from? 

Ashley Murphy: They mostly originate from stranded retirement accounts. So someone's got tens of thousands. They  know they're going to get hosed if they try and distribute it without advice or that doing the right thing  and that's when they pick up the phone. The problem is for practitioners, where there's a market failure  is, I have a boutique firm. There's one, one of me. I've got a couple staff, but essentially there's one of  me. 

Ashley Murphy: And so if someone's coming along with a very focused, very specific question, I don't have the capacity  to take on those kind of clients. And so there's a problem. How do those people get advice? If there's no  one out there offering that specific advice, and it really does need to be specific. As you alluded to with  your analogy earlier, that I've built upon with a Babel Fish. Every single bilateral or pairwise country  combination is going to be different. 

Ashley Murphy: And that's, what's led to me taking a more strident view with, with other planners I get talking to. Where  they may be interested in becoming in their own heads. They're saying, I'll become an international  planner and I'll help this amorphous group right here about called Expats. And I'm really coming down on that and saying it doesn't work. I don't think you can have a profitable business, one that you would  actually want or anyone would want to buy. If all you're doing all day long is working with different  expats from different places all the time. Because you would essentially be a research service. If that's  what you're doing. You can never... [Crosstalk 00:20:04]. 

Jason Pereira: And you go get it wrong. It's beyond cognitive ability. I mean, come on. Like any one country's tax code  is enough of a strain. You throw in a second, third, fourth. That's brutally painful. There is something to  be said for simplifying one's life to when dealing across borders as much as possible. But yeah,  someone's got to tell you that I deal with cross-border in seven different countries. I would just laugh. 

Ashley Murphy: Exactly. And maybe they could, there was a student we had last year, who had this vision and instead of  moving down to Latin America and dealing with retirees. And I thought, you know what, that I could  imagine. I mean, I'd say I'm being generous and I could imagine if you said, I know Mexico, Costa Rica,  and maybe one other countries retirement issues and that's action or timing. And that's it. And you  didn't say, I know that. What if we accrue stock options in one country and you know.... [crosstalk  00:20:55]. 

Jason Pereira: Oh God. Stock options. You just drop the time bomb, every time stock options get involved. It's like, this  is going to end poorly because it just never dealt with anywhere in a tax code. [crosstalk 00:21:06] A  certain cross-border treaty. And it's just brutal. 

Ashley Murphy: Absolutely 

Jason Pereira: Yeah. I mean, I can see that. If you simplify it down to just retirement accounts. I'm sure you can build a  knowledge base, but I mean, I live in different world. You know Canada's the benefactor of the largest  number of U.S. expats. So there's enough of a market here to just do that. In fact, I know a handful of  people who specifically, and you know, them two who basically specialize in nothing, but that. Now they  do quite well, but it's, it's something that frankly not enough advisors know about. 

Jason Pereira: And the ones who actually, I think just in general, as lax as consumers are about the need or the moving  between borders on this stuff. I'd say that the advisory industry is equally as lax, if not worse off,  because there's a higher duty of care there. And I still remember sitting in a meeting with an advisory  board meeting with with other advisors in 2012, and going on about the need for PFIC reporting about  something. And one of the advisors went. 

Jason Pereira: When did this happen? I don't know, like six years ago. Well, I've never heard of this the first time I've  heard of it. I'm like, dude, there's been so many newspaper articles and like articles in our own publications. Like, what do you read all day? Right? Like, so I just thought to myself, my God, like how  much, how offside are so many of his clients now, because 

Ashley Murphy: Absolutely. And that's the thing is I. Gosh. Where to start with this? I could give an hour long lecture just  on that very point you raised. I think the problem is the advisors have an economic incentive to work  with whoever they can and fluff their way through it. 

Jason Pereira: I get it all the time. 

Ashley Murphy: Literally woke up today to two inquiries. Hey, I've got an Aussie expat. Can I work with you on an hourly  basis, just to inform me about what I need to know so that I can continue working with the client. And  it's not that I am opposed to advisors continuing to work with their own clients who happen to be Aussie  expats. 

Ashley Murphy: It's that there's so much to know. And that the fact finding, I mean, from the very beginning, if you  haven't collected information about their immigration patterns and you don't know the visa so  [crosstalk 00:23:02] that when they applied for a green card, you're off to a poor start. 

Ashley Murphy: So the trouble there is there's an economic incentive advisers have to continue to work with clients.  There's a lack of enforcement, certainly from a regulatory point of view in the U.S. We're cursed with  regulations. We're written in the aftermath of the great depression that are focused singularly on the  investments [crosstalk 00:23:22]. 

Jason Pereira: Literally. 

Ashley Murphy: That don't have anything to do with financial planning at all. And so we're left with this toothless tiger,  known as the CFP board. Who have as standard. What is it? A13 is competence. 

Ashley Murphy: Which says [crosstalk 00:23:34]. You must be competent in the area in which you're practicing to  provide that advice. 

Jason Pereira: Yep. 

Ashley Murphy: Well, like I said, you toothless tiger. Has anyone ever heard of that? Being enforced ever. I mean, ever.  And so all of these things bring it all together. And I think I'm beginning to paint a picture as hazy as my  vacation mind is doing here and struggling to string words together. I think you're beginning to see why  there's a need for something like a GFP Institute. To provide that education and to make it accessible  and to try and lower the barriers to entry for folks trying to... [crosstalk 00:24:09] 

Jason Pereira: Yeah, it's funny. The number I often say. It's what was quite amusing is the number of people who claim  to do cross-border financial planning in my country. And the very small number of us who actually have  CFPs on both sides of the border. It's quite amusing, lots more people with Series 7 licenses in Canada.  But not a lot of dual CFPs. So we'll which, by the way, anyone listening, who's an advisor, there's a fast  track. If you want to do that anyway, email me. 

Jason Pereira: So, okay, now that we've scared everyone specifically consumers, and by the way, this is a podcast  primarily for business owners. And I'll tell you right now, if you're dealing with business, if you're a  business owner with know cross-border issues. I hope you're really getting the right advice because my  God. There's so many ways to screw that up. Even worse than the average individual. Now that we've  scared everyone, let's talk about where to find help. So there's no one repository of a database that  basically points to all cross-border situations. 

Jason Pereira: If someone is looking for advice on basically multi-jurisdictional planning. What is your advice for what  they should look out for and the kind of questions they should ask all of that person. 

Ashley Murphy: Yeah. Wow. What a great question. And you're going to have to forgive me for being a little self-serving  in my answer, but I'm going to try and answer it as impartially as I can. So the way I would do that today  would probably be the way I answered the same question from a good high school. No, University friend of mine who has been incredibly successful to start a global spirits company. Well, spirits non-alcoholic  spirits company, but has been incredibly successful. 

Ashley Murphy: And so he called me up about a year ago and he said, gosh, Ash. I need some help with finding someone  who knows about in UK and Australia and the U.S. Where should I go? And I said, the way I would do  that would be a Securitas search. Starting with STEP. Going to the Society of Trust and Estate Planners is  now the trouble you'll have with STEP is inherent right there in the name. 

Ashley Murphy: You're looking for financial planning advice, and you're asking a state planer. However, this is an  incredibly international group, probably the most international group of all of the, if you could call it the  financial and legal services groups that I know of. 

Ashley Murphy: They are going to be connected because that's their business. They're going to be connected to the  lawyers, the tax lawyers, to the private bankers and to the specialist financial advisors that know those  particular cross-border combinations. So that was the answer that I gave him. 

Ashley Murphy: But the trouble would STEP, Jason. As you would know, is it really veers sort of high net worth the  trust... [Crosstalk 00:26:35]. 

Jason Pereira: Oh, absolutely. 

Ashley Murphy: They only get really excited about these multi-jurisdictional trust structures when there's tens of millions  of dollars involved. And so for the [inaudible 00:26:45] or the folks under, let's say $10 million in net  worth. It's going to be a bit more challenging because that STEP member, that person who's who's  hourly rate is $800 an hour. 

Ashley Murphy: They're not so inclined to take a call. If there isn't some forgive the graphic expression. If there isn't  some meat on the bone. If they can't see it as a juicy prospect, then they're going to say. Hey, I don't  have time for this. I'm sorry. So again, another market failure that, that, that identify. So where would  you go? 

Ashley Murphy: You would, there's a couple of places though. That would be the FPA, the U.S. FPA's International Cross  Border Knowledge Circle. However, there is no centralized repository of who does what know the  qualifications. [crosstalk 00:27:24]. So where else could you go? You could go to I think... Look at how  someone's incentivized. You'll understand their conflicts and see how their advices is shaped. So for that  reason, I tend to veer towards fee only in the U.S. Maybe call it a fee only in Canada or fee for service or  something like that. 

Ashley Murphy: Probably something similar. I'm sure Jason knows. But looking at somewhere like XYPN. XYPlanning  Network or NAPFA. Those advisors tend to be a bit more principled and they will really do some  shopping around you. Then you'll see an IC on the forums. Every week, does anyone know anyone who  had blah, blah, blah, fill in the blank. 

Ashley Murphy: But it was identifying this particular shortcoming that we're talking about right now that led to the  initiative that we're launching the GMP Institute. And that is where there is a find an advisor search tool.  That would work very similar to how STEPs tool works. Where you could say, I am in this country. I am  seeking a professional with expertise in this other country who has specific knowledge of business  owners or retirement plans or whatever the case may be. So we're building that out. 

Ashley Murphy: In fact, one of them that was just asked about that yesterday and said, what's the timeline for that  release? We're looking at late February for that, but we're also limited by, I don't want to tap it if it's any  kind of exhaustive database point in time, as a membership is growing. And it's only through bringing  cross-border plans together, making sure that they satisfy a minimum standards of, of expertise. You  know, that we're able to say. We're making this referral, we're not guaranteeing any referral, but we're  making it pretty confidently that this person knows what they're talking about because we've tested  them. We know that they have a minimum competence to provide some advice. 

Jason Pereira: Excellent. So, good. I mean, they give us some, some options. I'll also plug the two associations I'm on  the board of in this country. The Financial Planning Association of Canada and the Institute for Advanced  Financial Planners. There are a handful of cross-border planners there that are credentialed or qualified.  That we... Some of those search functions will help you find them otherwise contacting the group is also  valuable. So before we sign off. 

Jason Pereira: Ashley, where can people find you and learn more about both cross-border planning and what it is  you're trying to accomplish with the association? 

Ashley Murphy: GFP.institute. And yes, Dot Institute is a web suffix that's now used. So GFP, Global Financial Planning  GFP.institute. That we'll talk about the mission of the GFP, the masterclass. And then for private clients,  that would be ARETE, ARETE-WA.com. So that's for policies in America or Americans in Australia. 

Jason Pereira: Excellent. Ashley, thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it. 

Ashley Murphy: Thank you. And thank you for all that you do Jason. 

Jason Pereira: My pleasure. So that was today's episode of Financial Planning for Canadian Business Owners. I hope  you enjoyed that. And I hope you got the message that frankly, and we tried to beat it into your heads  quite frequently on this one is get help. Especially, especially if you're dealing across borders because  the convoluted nature in which that entire domain works is not for the faint of heart. As always, if you  enjoy this podcast, please leave a review on iTunes, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts until  next time take care. 

Producer: This podcast was brought to you by Woodgate Financial, an award-winning financial planning firm,  catering to high net worth individuals, business owners, and their families. To learn more, go to woodgate.com. You can subscribe to this podcast on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher,  Google Play, and Spotify. Or find more episodes@jasonpereira.ca. You can even ask Siri, Alexa or Google Home to subscribe for  you.

FPCBOJason PereiraFinancial Planning